Good Sale. Bad Sale – An Interview with Brian Caffarelli of Strategic Talent Solutions
Jeff and Jason welcome Brian Caffarelli to discuss the long-lasting impact of good and bad sales decisions.
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Jason Mlicki: This is Jason. You want to be on Rattle and Pedal? We have a great audience, and we think you should know one another, so come on Rattle and Pedal and share a success, or a mistake. Visit rattleandpedal.com/peerstories to learn more. Now, on with today’s show.
Announcer: You’re listening to Rattle and Pedal, Divergent Thoughts on Marketing and Growing Professional Services Firms. Your hosts are Jason Mlicki and Jeff McKay.
Jason Mlicki: [00:00:30] Jeff, we have a guest today and we are going to talk about good sale/bad sale, and before we start it, I guess I want to ask what that means. Does that mean a good sale is when a client hires Rattleback? A bad sale is when a client hires Prudent Pedal? Well, that’s good client/bad client, smart client/smart client.
Jeff McKay: I’m not even going to touch that one. I’m not going to touch that one. Yes, we’re talking good sale/bad sale.
Jason Mlicki: All right. [00:01:00] Well, who’s with us? Introduce our guest.
Jeff McKay: Well, on the phone with us is one of my favorite people, Brian Caffarelli, and I’m going to let him introduce himself in just a second, but I’ll say this about Brian. He is one of my favorite people. He represents the best of the professional services partners and leaders. He’s smart, he’s driven, client-centric, but the thing that I like [00:01:30] most about him, and he probably doesn’t even know this, is his humility. You’ll hear that when he starts talking. As they say, “Still waters run deep.” Anyway, hey, Brian.
BrianCaffarelli: Hi, Jeff, and hi, Jason. How are you both?
Jason Mlicki: Super happy to have you here. I’m glad to have someone smart to talk to again.
BrianCaffarelli: [crosstalk 00:01:49]-
Jeff McKay: So am I.
Jason Mlicki: Yeah, two-way street.
BrianCaffarelli: Okay, I’m starting to perspire a little bit now.
Jeff McKay: [00:02:00] Brian, you bring a lot of credibility. I know your credibility. Most of the people that know you know your credibility around sales and growth and the professional services world because you are one of the highest ranking people at Hewitt Associates. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself, the roles you’ve had in the past, and how you’ve come to be on this call with us today?
BrianCaffarelli: Sure, Jeff. [00:02:30] Thanks. I had the great pleasure of working at Hewitt Associates at a really interesting and exciting time in the history of the firm’s evolution. I started there shortly after dirt was invented and spent about 25 years there during an explosive period of growth for the firm that ultimately culminated in their initial public offering. During that time, my role was either directly in sales, selling [00:03:00] at that point in time what was our benefits outsourcing services, or managing and leading the sales team that was focused on selling our benefit outsourcing services. That was my functional role. I also had the privilege of serving on the firm’s Executive Committee while we were a partnership for roughly 12 years. Then, after we became a public company, chaired our Stockholders Committee, which was also a great privilege.
BrianCaffarelli: Jeff, I’d probably be at whatever [00:03:30] the current incarnation of Hewitt is today even, except in 2007 the City of Chicago chose to bid for the 2016 Olympic Games, and I had the great honor of being part of the team that was trying to make a sale to bring the Olympics to Chicago. We did not succeed, and sort of in 2010 I thought, “Wow, I have to do something.” I always just really loved the science behind selling [00:04:00] in a professional services environment. I thought there might be a bit of a consulting business around that, and so I joined a firm called Strategic Talent Solutions and today I work with professional services firms’ partners and account executives on their sales and account management strategy.
Jason Mlicki: I bet that story of chasing the Olympics would be a podcast in and of itself. I bet that would be a really interesting one to talk about. I’d love to hear that story.
BrianCaffarelli: I’d love to tell you that, Jason. I don’t know if I want to record it, but I’d definitely love to share.
Jason Mlicki: That’s funny. [00:04:30] All right, so good sale/bad sale. What [crosstalk 00:04:33]-
BrianCaffarelli: Oh [crosstalk 00:04:33]-
Jason Mlicki: What do you mean by that? What constitutes a good sale? What constitutes a bad sale? I mean, aren’t all sales good? Isn’t any revenue good most of the time?
BrianCaffarelli: Great question, Jason. I’ll just share my experiences or our experiences as we were growing up at Hewitt. I really thought all of us could make sales, but there was such a thing as a bad sale, both a bad sale from a client’s perspective and really a bad sale from the firm’s perspective. [00:05:00] I think bad sales are those sales where there is just misalignment within each organization. Misalignment within the buyer’s organization and misalignment within the seller’s organization. At some level, there’s just misalignment between those folks who may have made the purchase and those folks that have to implement the solution.
BrianCaffarelli: Now, that’s on the buyer’s side, and on the seller’s side, there’s misalignment between those folks who have maybe [00:05:30] made the sale and those folks that have to actually successfully implement and manage the client on an ongoing basis. I think when there’s that misalignment, both in the buyer’s environment and in the seller’s environment, it yields a bad relationship and that sale really isn’t good. It just starts off a bad relationship that can be bad reputationally, it can be bad financially, it can be bad for the individuals involved in it. In the end, [00:06:00] it’s the client you regret, so I do think there is such a thing as a bad sale and I think it starts with misalignment.
Jeff McKay: How could that possibly happen? The way you just… Oh, come on. We’re smart consultants, accountants, lawyers. There’s no way that could possibly happen. How [crosstalk 00:06:18]-
Jason Mlicki: You know what’s funny? Before you answer that, Brian, what’s funny, Jeff, is my inclination was the exact opposite, is that, “Oh my God, do good sales ever happen?” That is what I thought. As he was talking, [00:06:30] I was like, “My God, that happens all the time.” Anyway-
BrianCaffarelli: Well, you know, I don’t know. I have a perspective on this and I hope this doesn’t come across as Pollyanna, but I do believe that it’s the responsibility of the salesperson to help the buyer make a really strong, informed, and confident purchase. I don’t know that it’s the responsibility of the… Secondarily, it’s the responsibility of the salesperson to sell their service or their product, but I think if you start from the [00:07:00] perspective that it’s the responsibility of the salesperson to help the buyer make a strong, confident, informed purchase for their organization, good things will happen. I think sometimes if that’s not a priority, bad things can happen.
BrianCaffarelli: By the same token, at least in the environment that I grew up in, especially because we were growing so explosively, the organization said it was the responsibility of the seller to protect the firm. Part of the way that the seller [00:07:30] protects the firm is to only bring in strong, aligned deals. Bring in strong, aligned deals so they start from that perspective as opposed to bringing in sort of a wobbly, misaligned, poorly crafted deal where we then have to rely on our implementation teams to correct the relationship over time.
BrianCaffarelli: I think good sales happen when the seller… I do think about this from a seller-centric perspective, but when the seller [00:08:00] believes that it’s their responsibility to help the buyer make a confident, informed, well-thought-out, aligned purchase and it’s the seller’s responsibility… The seller believes it’s their responsibility to protect the firm from the bad deals and deliver a well-developed deal to the implementation team that takes it forward. I think it has a lot to do with what the seller feels their responsibility is.
Jason Mlicki: I have no following question. It’s so thoughtful. I’m curious, Brian. The misalignment [00:08:30] thing you talk about, that as you’re talking I think there’s just examples popping up in my head left and right, both deals I’ve done or deals I’ve seen clients do. Where does misalignment tend to happen? Is it a misalignment of the solution against the problem? Which could be, by extension, a misunderstanding of the problem, I suppose. Is it a misalignment of the cultures? Meaning that the firm and its client are just not aligned culturally speaking in terms of how they should work together. What do you normally see there?
BrianCaffarelli: Jason, I think that’s a great question. I [00:09:00] think it can be in any of those areas and more, by the way. I think we could expand our definition of where misalignment can come into play, and I think sometimes, then, it happens because people go too quickly. People jump too quickly and don’t take the time and the effort and the energy to say, to your first point, “Is this the problem? Is this really the problem? If we fix this, will this yield [00:09:30] the desired outcome you have?”
BrianCaffarelli: To that point, I do think sometimes on the buyer side, buyers… They can speak in the language of activities or requirements as opposed to the language of problems or outcomes. If the seller just sells to the stated activity or requirement, misalignment can happen because that activity or requirement may not, in fact, translate to the result or the outcome. It’s getting beneath the buyer’s language, that’s one area.
BrianCaffarelli: [00:10:00] The other area I think sometimes, to your point, is cultural. At least the service that we sold was a service that would bind two organizations contractually for a minimum of five years, and it was a service that would have us interacting with their employees and their leadership teams almost on a daily basis. At some point in time you have to say, “Can we all just step back and think through whether [00:10:30] we can happily coexist and live together for five years? Do we think that can happen? If it can’t happen, every day we’re going to be at each other’s throat. We’re going to hate each other and bad things are going to happen, so let’s play it forward. What’s it like to live together?”
BrianCaffarelli: Them, sometimes the sellers can be so eager for a deal, they can take a deal that, well, you’d say, “Hey, there’s at least a 50% chance that we can deliver on this.” How unfair is that? [00:11:00] How unfair is that to the team and to the buyer? You can only take those deals where you have a supreme amount of confidence that you can deliver on the buyer’s outcomes and that you can do it in a way that protects everybody within the firm. Protects and energizes and grows those folks in the firm. I think those misalignments can happen in all sorts of different areas. I’m sure you guys have even better examples of this than I do.
Jeff McKay: You know what I love about that, Brian? You and I, we’ve had some conversations [00:11:30] around sales culture or sales philosophy and is there a difference between the two of those. As you described that, there really are kind of three levels in my mind that are precursors, if you will, to getting to good revenue. It’s that you need salespeople, sales philosophies, and overall firm cultures that are confident about the services that they offer and [00:12:00] what they do, their expertise, their ability to deliver, if you will. They really need knowledge. They need business knowledge, they need expertise, and whatever given discipline is, they need to understand the entire organization, but they also need to understand the client really well.
Jeff McKay: They need to be humble at all three of those levels as well. I think, as I said in my introduction, this is one of [00:12:30] the things that you do so well, you’re willing to learn. You’re willing to say, “I don’t know. I’m willing to figure it out with you instead of just dictate.” Finally, they’re patient. They’re not just trying to close the deal as quickly as they can and kind of move on. I guess I would add a fifth. They have foresight. They think long term and they know repercussions of actions, [00:13:00] short term and long term. If you don’t have those, can you even get to good revenue?
BrianCaffarelli: I think that’s a great list, and if I were to reflect back on sort of my career and the people who really taught and the hard-knocks lessons that we learned, in many cases, first off, we had to learn, to your last point, I think we had to learn what a bad sale was [00:13:30] and to live through what a bad sale was. At Hewitt, especially early on, we probably had… We did have plenty of them. I don’t think we purposefully tried to make bad sales, but we had plenty of them where it’s like we got a client and then all of a sudden, for whatever reason, it was clear we could never make the client happy. We could never make the client happy. We could [00:14:00] never operate our best and deliver at a level of quality that we could be proud of. Financials were destructive and everybody on that who ever got onto that client team wanted to leave that client team, whether by getting on another client team or leaving the firm.
Jason Mlicki: Oh, wow.
BrianCaffarelli: That client could never be a reference, and because these were relatively big sales that involved lots of people, large [00:14:30] teams, and lots of money, you really felt the pain of a bad sale. It made you incredibly introspective and made you sort of think through, “How did we get here? What was my role in getting us to this position? How can I make sure I never put the firm and my colleagues and the client and the future client in this position again? I really hit you in the face.
BrianCaffarelli: We had… I was fortunate enough to grow up under a number of [00:15:00] really great leaders that I respect and admire so much. One of them always said… At the beginning of my career, I never understood this, but later on I did. He always said, “We will never regret the client we didn’t get as much as the client that we got.” I was like, “What are you… That’s the silliest thing I ever heard.”
Jason Mlicki: “Is it my job to get the clients?”
BrianCaffarelli: Yeah, but then in the end, it was true. There was [00:15:30] a client that we swung and missed at, and wow, that was terrible. It hurt and I wish we got them, but you know what? There was another client and we got them. Then, there was that wrong client that we got that we brought into the fold, and you know, we were contractually obligated for the next five years and we were reputationally obligated for more than that. We could never get it right and we had to live with that every day. Once you learn that lesson a couple of times… I wasn’t smart enough to learn it once, just to learn it once. I had to learn it a couple [00:16:00] of times. Then, it brings about a new reality and a new way that you go about your business.
Jason Mlicki: Yeah. Ow, I can just feel that. I can feel it from the people’s side. I can feel it from the brand and reputational side. That’s just a bad, bad scenario.
Announcer: You’re listening to Rattle and Pedal, Divergent Thoughts on Growing Your Professional Services Firm. Your hosts are Jason Mlicki, Principal of Rattleback, the marketing agency for professional services firms, [00:16:30] and Jeff McKay, former CMO and Founder of strategy consultancy Prudent Pedal. If you find this podcast helpful, please help us by telling a friend and rating us on iTunes. Thank you. Now, back to Jason and Jeff.
Jeff McKay: When we were doing some prep work for this call, we talked about, “Well, what’s the name of it? Is it good sale/bad sale? Good revenue/bad revenue?” We ended up calling it a good sale, and for good reason because [00:17:00] as Jason just said, “Isn’t my job just supposed to get the sale?” Most people think, “I need revenue, so let’s just get the revenue.” A good sale, in addition to profitability and revenue dollars, there are a lot of other things that go into a good sale, and a good sale actually might not be super profitable sometimes. Can you talk a little bit about the other components that build [00:17:30] out a good sale?
BrianCaffarelli: Sure, and I bet you both can add a lot to this list. First off, I think when we sort of thought about, “What do we gain from this client relationship?” Obviously, the money is great. I mean, the money is great. That’s fantastic, but there are many other things that we gain. In some cases, it enhances our brand or our reputation. In many cases, it might help us enter into a new market. [00:18:00] It might help us develop or perfect a particular service. It helps us develop our people.
BrianCaffarelli: There are at least in the environment that I grew up in, our prospects’ clients’ prospects would probably move from company to company. If you help somebody make a really strong buying decision for their company, when they move somewhere else, they knew you just for an advisor [00:18:30] who could help them make strong buying decisions again, and so they reached out to you again and again and again. All of those things, I think, are valuable outcomes from a sale beyond just the revenue or margin that the sale yields.
Jason Mlicki: Yeah.
Jeff McKay: One [crosstalk 00:18:46]-
Jason Mlicki: One interesting one to me that I saw early on in this call as a bit of a conflict, but I think as you just described it, it’s not, this idea of confidence. You mentioned this idea of, “Well, we have 50% confidence that this is going to succeed”, and really, should almost never take [00:19:00] that sale. I would argue, based on what you just said, there are all kinds of incidences where a firm might say, “We only have 20% confidence this is going to succeed and it’s still a good sale.”
Jason Mlicki: The only way it’s a good sale, of course, is if you’re fully candid about that with the client and say, “Look, what you’re asking to do has never been done. We don’t know if it’s going to work. We think it’s an interesting idea. We think there’s merit to it, but we need to go find out. It may fail.” That’s to me how firms develop new markets, new products, new services, new ways of thinking, and it’s having that [00:19:30] client at the front edge that’s willing to make investments, both in the firm and in sort of new ways of looking at the world that sparks new practices and those types of things.
BrianCaffarelli: Jason, I agree with you so much on that and let me just say, I talked about the alignment within the buyer organization and within the seller organization. Probably even more important, and I’m sorry I didn’t bring this up, is the alignment between the buyer and the seller organization. To your point, if it’s [00:20:00] 20% confidence and buyer and seller are aligned on that, wow, this would be awesome. This would be great. It’s never been done before.
BrianCaffarelli: Let’s now enter into the relationship that way and let’s begin to think about what we do along the way to continue to increase the odds of success and what expectations that we set with all the constituencies and how we set those expectations given where we are today. Where are the interim checkpoints along the way? I mean, then we can all deal with that [00:20:30] because we’re transparent and aligned, and I think that’s critical.
Jason Mlicki: I also love your definition of selling. It’s really it’s just helping. It’s you’re helping the buyer make a decision, and to me, that’s really one of the fundamental best insights in this whole podcast is if that’s your definition of selling, then rushing a client to a poor decision would never happen because it’s antithetical to helping. I think that’s really valuable insight for people.
BrianCaffarelli: Can I credit that appropriately. I happened to be at Hewitt [00:21:00] at an interesting time when David Maister was working with our firm. I don’t know if people will remember that name, but he was the coauthor of the book The Trusted Advisor. I think we were strongly influenced throughout by his perspective on how professional services firms developed trust, and especially as it relates to the concept of minimizing your self-orientation and maximizing your client orientation in all of your interactions, so-
Jason Mlicki: Yeah. That’s awesome. [00:21:30] I think that the concept of sales as helping comes up all over the place, and it’s interesting that at the root of that, to Maister. I have one last question that I’d like to close on with we could, and it’s sort of a little bit of… This is the right pivot. Jeff gave us the wrong pivot. We’ll cut that part out.
Jason Mlicki: My question is, okay, if firms… If there’s good sales and bad sales, presumably good sales and bad sales exist in every single firm all the time. There’s always good sales happening, there’s always bad sales happening. Your goal is to minimize the amount of bad ones you probably have. What are the things that [00:22:00] firms just always get wrong or always get right? What are the things that sort of habitually block good sales from happening inside of professional services firms?
BrianCaffarelli: Well, you know, can I answer to the positive side? To the [crosstalk 00:22:12]-
Jason Mlicki: Yeah, absolutely [crosstalk 00:22:12]-
BrianCaffarelli: Positive? I think what happens-
Jason Mlicki: Maybe that’s the better way to do it.
BrianCaffarelli: That makes it right.
Jason Mlicki: I’m always too negative.
BrianCaffarelli: Okay. I think Jeff hit on two of them that I thought were at least really important to us, and one is organizational confidence, and that’s number one. If a firm has [00:22:30] strong organizational confidence, I think that helps in making a good sale. I think if you believe in your soul, in your heart as an organization that you provide exceptional, outstanding services that yield tremendous outcomes for your client, then you can enter into the selling relationships from two perspectives. One is, “I don’t need to try to convince you of that, I just need to help you see it”, and so that’s [00:23:00] number one.
BrianCaffarelli: Number two is, “I’m never going to be starved for prospects because I know we’re really, really good in an area where people really, really need help.” I’m never going to be starved for prospects. I can always find them because of the strength of our solution to what I know, our real problem. I’m so confident that the buyer will see our quality that I don’t have to try to convince them of it. I just have to help them see [00:23:30] it. I’m just sort of almost… I’m not pulling the buyer through the sales process, I’m gently guiding them through the sales process. Not pulling them from the head, I’m sort of guiding them from behind so that the make an informed purchase.
BrianCaffarelli: Organizational confidence I think is key. I think the second part of that is patience. Patience becomes difficult, especially if you’re trying to meet quarterly closes or those types of things [00:24:00] where your focus is not on helping the buyer make a good decision, but helping ring a bell or get on the scoreboard before the 31st of the month. Now, that just blows it all. I think organizational confidence and patience are key. Then, I think the third is being very clear about who protects the organization. It can be, “Hey, let’s lob in a bad sale and let’s let the service team try to make it right. We invest heavily in our services team, we’ll lob in bad sales all the time, [00:24:30] and we’ll rely on the service team to make it right going forward.”
Jeff McKay: That’s tough. Why don’t you protect it on the front end?
BrianCaffarelli: Making sure everybody is aligned, that the seller’s job is to protect the firm. Everybody, leadership on down, align that the seller’s job, protect the firm. I think that’s an important aspect or element of this as well.
Jeff McKay: You cannot end on that one, Jason.
Jason Mlicki: We have to.
Jeff McKay: You cannot.
Jason Mlicki: You can’t [crosstalk 00:24:56]-
Jeff McKay: No, no.
Jason Mlicki: There’s nothing [crosstalk 00:24:57]-
Jeff McKay: When you have [crosstalk 00:24:57] somebody-
Jason Mlicki: Who’s so emphatically good there and you’re going [00:25:00] to ruin it by droning on.
Jeff McKay: When you have somebody of this caliber on your podcast, you don’t let them go too quickly. Brian, you said something that is so important that I think almost all professional services firm wrestle with. Ultimately, who protects the firm? Particularly when there’s a big number associated with a deal and it’s the difference between somebody [00:25:30] making partner or getting more shares or reputation or whatever. Partners are very, very good at rationalizing the benefits of said deal. How does an organization stop that bad sale from going through? Ultimately, who makes the call within the organization that, “This is not going to happen”?
BrianCaffarelli: I’ll just say, Jeff, I can [00:26:00] only speak to personal experiences on this, but within our organization, we became quite large for a professional services firm. Quite large at the end of my career. There were always opportunity review sessions where the seller had to face the scrutiny of the leadership team. They were smart. They were whip smart, they were super hard, and they really put us through the wringer on where the buyer was and what the buyer [00:26:30] was all about and where we were on each sale. That leadership team made the no-go decision.
BrianCaffarelli: We got credit as sellers for the honesty and transparency that we brought to those meetings, not for the fact that we could sort of check somebody to say, “Go”, but for the fact that we could be extremely honest and transparent and forthright about where the buyer was in their purchase process and where we [00:27:00] were in the sale and how this was likely to spin forward. We’d probably have to go to those meetings a couple of times during the course of a large deal. That was the thumbs up, thumbs down. We all had our own little nicknames for what those meetings were like, but they were like inquisitions.
BrianCaffarelli: In the end, it was the leadership of the firm that made the decision on whether we were well positioned for a great relationship, not whether we should get [00:27:30] a $5 million TCV, but whether we were well positioned for a five-year relationship. If they came to the conclusion that we weren’t well positioned for the five-year relationship, it wasn’t going to happen.
Jason Mlicki: I’m curious because the notion of go/no-go comes up a lot in professional services firms, and I think when I heard it used most of the time, it’s used to describe the likelihood of winning. The go/no-go decision is predominantly about, “What is the likelihood that we will win this piece of business to determine [00:28:00] whether or not we want to put more resources against it going forward?” How much of the go/no-go should be about that? How much of it should be about being the guard at the door that doesn’t let certain people into the nightclub?
BrianCaffarelli: Yeah, that’s a great question, Jason, and I will say this. It’s interesting. I never thought of it the way that you said it, but it’s interesting you made just a crystal clear, bright line contrast for me. The go/no-go hurdles that we [00:28:30] had to face over time were all about whether or not this could be a highly successful five-year… Actually, we want it, obviously, to be more than five years, but the contract is five years. A highly successful five-year relationship for us and the client that we’d both be exceptionally proud of and happy about, that was the go/no-go. The go/no-go was never about, “Do we put the resources against it in order to win?”
BrianCaffarelli: I will say this, and I hope this doesn’t sound arrogant because I think [00:29:00] back in the time that I was at Hewitt Associates, we were often characterized as being arrogant. We sort of felt like, “If we go for it, we can win. That’s not the issue. The issue is, what if we do? That’s what our sort of go/no-go is about. What if we do?”
Jason Mlicki: It’s interesting, because in my head I have this continuum, again, and the continuum is… All these things are interrelated, organizational confidence, patience, and the go/no-go and how it’s used. [00:29:30] My sense is is that there’s a lot of firms that sort of had low patience, low organizational confidence, and the go/no-go is all about, “How likely are we to win?” Then, at the other end of the spectrum are firms with higher organizational confidence, high levels of patience, and a go/no-go is about who we’re letting into the club. Every firm probably is aspiring to be on the right side of that continuum, but finds themselves somewhere in the middle or to the left more often than they’d like. Maybe with the challenge of good sale/bad sale is, “How do I keep moving my organization to the right progressively over time?”
BrianCaffarelli: [00:30:00] Jason, could I just say one other thing? It’s like, “Who do I let into the club?” Or, the other way to think about it is, “What club do I join?” You know?
Jason Mlicki: Oh yeah [crosstalk 00:30:09]-
BrianCaffarelli: Because in many ways, we are joining the client’s club.
Jason Mlicki: Yes.
Jason Mlicki: That’s a really great way of looking at it. “Who do I let into the club” is truly arrogant. It’s like, “Man, we’re so good. Who is allowed in?” It’s like, “No, no, no. What club do we want to be a part of? Let’s make sure we’re both in a club together that we both want to be in.” That’s not arrogant at all, so you’re right. No, that’s a really great distinction. Also, that’s very powerful stuff. You definitely, [00:30:30] at least for me, got me really thinking differently about how I’ve thought about a very fundamental concept of professional services selling for years, which is the go/no-go, and I think that’s a really powerful on for all of our listeners.
Jason Mlicki: This was a great conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us. Despite Jeff’s dissent, I am going to shut us down because we are well beyond our time mandate on this and I want to be mindful of your time and our listeners’ time. I just want to thank you for coming. This was [00:31:00] really illuminating and really a great, great podcast conversation.
BrianCaffarelli: Oh, well, thank you so much for inviting me. I really feel very privileged and honored. Happy Holidays to the both of you and anybody who listens to this. Thank you. The fan, thanks again.
Jason Mlicki: Yeah. Thank you, Brian, and thanks, Jeff, for making it happen.
Jeff McKay: Thanks, Brian.
Announcer: Thank you for listening to Rattle and Pedal, Divergent Thoughts on Marketing and Growing Professional Services Firms. Find content related to this episode at rattleandpedal.com. Rattle and Pedal is [00:31:30] also available on iTunes and Stitcher.