Transcript

Jason Mlicki: So I will admit preparing for this particular podcast and thinking about the topic sort of scares me. Actually I should say it’s sort of terrifies me. And I would say because when you step back … When we had the idea for the topic, it was kind of a joke, but then when you really step back and think about it and you realize how true the statement is, it’s a little startling, and then it makes you kind of question, “Wait a minute, what am I doing here?” So it got a little bit scary for me. So this notion of marketing ruins everything I have found to be quite true in my personal exploration of the topic leading into this. I don’t know if you found the same thing or not.

Jeff McKay: It makes me wonder where we’re going to jump in on this because our listeners have to be thinking, “What kind of topic that?”

Jason Mlicki: Yeah, what are you thinking?

Jeff McKay: Imagine an accountant saying, “Accounting and finance ruins everything.” Or a chief HR officer saying, “HR ruins everything.”

Jason Mlicki: Well, yeah. I mean what was weird was, at least for me, I made a list, so I started thinking about just sort of in life where marketing has absolutely ruined things. And I made this list, and it goes from small to big and that process was kind of scary. And then I started to try to make a list on the other side. So, where has marketing enhanced the world, or made the world better? Unfortunately, that list right now is a little shorter. So I’m hoping maybe you can help me find a little bit more bright lights here than I’m feeling right now. It’s feeling like a very dark podcast, but I’m hoping it doesn’t end up that way.

Jeff McKay: Have we ever had a dark podcast? Really?

Jason Mlicki: I wouldn’t [crosstalk 00:02:01]

Jeff McKay: I’m so optimistic and-

Jason Mlicki: I mean I don’t, I don’t see myself as a dark person. So anyway, I made a list. How did you go about this? Maybe that’s another place to start is how did you think about this topic? Did you even think about it or you just not put much thought into it?

Jeff McKay: Well, you know, me, I’m always thinking. So I did not make a list, but I have very strong opinions about this on multiple levels. So why don’t we jump in on your list and then we’ll go from there.

Jason Mlicki: Okay. So I’ve got some that are obvious and I’ll start with the incredibly obvious one. And for full disclosure, we are recording this podcast in early November, so it’s November, what? 13th, 14th, something like that. And over the weekend I went shopping with my wife, as most people start doing around this time of year, and as I’m walking through this Kohl’s store with her, they’re playing Christmas music. And we are 40 days out from the holiday. We haven’t even touched on Thanksgiving. I mean they had Christmas stuff in the store before Halloween this year. So I guess my comment is marketing has sort of just ruined holidays in general, meaning that they’ve sort of just taken them from times to celebrate with your family, times to celebrate all that’s good in the world, and sort of turned them into crass commercialism.

So just the one caveat I have to this, as I’m walking through the store, I had this really interesting thought which was that I’m walking through the store. They don’t have a whole lot of Christmas stuff up yet, but they have some. They’re playing Christmas music but they’re not doing it consistently. So they’ll play a Christmas song and then they’ll play a couple of other songs and they’ll come back to a Christmas song. So I had this hypothesis that there A-B testing me as I’m walking.

So they’re basically testing how early in the season they can introduce the holiday that drives all of their sales in a way that’s not too overtly directed in your face. I don’t know if that’s really the case, but that’s sort of what it felt like. The sense of like if they play, It’s Beginning To Feel Like Christmas, I’m going to open my wallet a little deeper than I would have otherwise. But if they do too much then I’m going to get turned off too soon. I think that’s the obvious one. Like we’ve sort of taken a very selfless, introspective, family oriented holiday and sort of just turned it into the mass commercial mess that it has sort of become for our society. But I have more.

Jeff McKay: You could write a dissertation on each holiday that marketing has ruined in that respect, because it does just become about consumption. And Christmas and Easter are two important ones in my mind, but Memorial Day and Veterans Day are really important ones as well because those used to be solemn days, looking at and contemplating life on earth, and war, and death and the loss of loved ones. And now it’s about a three day weekend. So I agree with you. Spot on, spot on.

Jason Mlicki: So that’s the obvious one. Now the next one I throw out is, I’m calling it anything boutique, unique and special. So anytime you stumble upon anything that’s just really unique and different and small and special to you, marketing finds it, scales, it, blows it up, ruins it, and spits it out the other side. And the example I’ll give is, are you familiar with Cheryl’s Cookies? Have you ever bought Cheryl’s Cookies?

Jeff McKay: No.

Jason Mlicki: So Mrs. Field’s Cookies. I’m sure you’re-

Jeff McKay: Yeah

Jason Mlicki: Cheryl’s is kind of like that. It’s a Columbus entrepreneur. When I was a kid, you’d go to the mall and Cheryl started this cookie shop, and she would hand make, bake these … Make the dough and hand bake these cookies, and she’d make these chocolate chunk cookies and you’d walk in the mall, and you smell them, and the aroma was unbelievable, and she put them out on trays, and they were fresh, and you’d buy one, and you eat it, and it was like this unbelievable sensation in your mouth.

We’ll of course marketing grabs hold of this and scales the bejesus out of it. And she’s of course since sold it and exited. Now, that same mall, which has been reinvented at least two times since, has a Cheryl’s Cookies store, you walk in and it’s like a clinical experience. All these cookies are manufactured in a plant somewhere, prepackaged in little plastic containers, and you buy them and they taste okay at best. So for me, marketing ruins everything that’s unique, boutique and special, and just sort of dumbs it down, waters it down and takes everything that you loved about it away in the vision of scale and growth.

Jeff McKay: Yeah, it’s the systemetation for growth. And the goal is ubiquity.

Jason Mlicki: Yes.

Jeff McKay: I’d throw Starbucks into that.

Jason Mlicki: Got it on my list.

Jeff McKay: Starbucks would be in there. Potbelly Sandwiches. Krispy Kreme. Pick any restaurant that you can think of and its growth for growth’s sake. And I have always said ubiquity kills brands. And you so eloquently described what I mean, something that was special just becomes franchised.

Jason Mlicki: Yeah. And it seems like the franchise just sucks all the life out of it. All the uniqueness of the product, the uniqueness of the experience, everything’s gone. Yeah, it’s funny you said Starbucks, it’s funny you had that because they were on my list in that group, because that was what I thought. To me, I don’t know that much of the Starbucks story, but I know it was inspired by the Italian café, and it was like an Americanized version of the Italian café. And that’s just so much romance to that, and now it’s just in any mall anywhere and just every street corner. It’s like whatever romance there was is out the window replaced with corn syrup laden drinks or whatever.

Jeff McKay: What’s interesting about the way you articulate that, Jason, and it’s so ironic, is that you talk about how they destroyed the experience. And the whole idea behind the systematization is to mass produce the experience.

Jason Mlicki: Yes.

Jeff McKay: That’s why people choose McDonald’s when they’re on the road. They know that they’re going to get a consistent McDonald’s experience. It may be a bad experience, or a less than unique experience, but it gives me an experience that I know what to expect. And when I’m in a foreign area, people don’t want to take on the risk of something new and different. They want to go to McDonald’s. They know they can get their quarter pounder, they know it’ll take them 15 minutes to get in and out and get back on the road and the fries will probably be good.

Jason Mlicki: Well, that’s funny you say that. So essentially the heart of the issue is that marketers, in the era of mass production, when everything went to scale, recognize the influence of risk aversion and how powerful risk aversion really is. That the risk of a bad experience is so ingrained in our mind that we’re willing to avoid the potential of a great experience to accept a marginal one.

Jeff McKay: And I think professional services fall into this trap as well. When they get on the client experience band wagon, that they try to make every consultant interaction, or accountant interaction identical. It’s bad practice to try to do that in a professional services firm beyond a simple process or methodology built around whatever the core competency is. If you’re an accounting firm, here’s how we do an audit. If you’re an IT firm, here’s how we do a technology implementation, here’s our quality checks. Those things make sense to be consistent, particularly if you’re a global firm, and you have players coming in from different teams. They all know the same playbook. I get that, but it’s the personalities of the individual consultants, and the relationships that they’re building that you simply can’t control. About all you can do, and the best thing to do, is to give directional, value-based points, if you will, on what’s inviolable. The rest, let them be themselves.

Jason Mlicki: Well, you know the analogy that comes to mind for me, I’ve been thinking about this with messaging lately a little bit is I’m sure you’ve had in your work as a marketer, at some point you developed elevator speeches for practices. There was a point in time where you said, “Well, let’s build these elevator speeches.” And I’ve been thinking that’s the stupidest idea. We have a client, a new client where I got this messaging document some agency put together and there’s like seven different elevator speeches for different personas. And I’m thinking, “No one’s ever going to read this and remember this and ever save this.” And yet we as agencies obsessed over these things for years, and marketers paid us to do it and it was stupidity, when what should be given to the consultant is some talking points. “Here’s the three or four things we’re trying to get clients to understand about our business.” “Okay, got it. I can work with that.” We think they’re going to be robots and go out and recite this elevator speech in these seven seconds in the elevator. It’s absurd.

Jeff McKay: I prefer to give my consultants questions, not statements.

Jason Mlicki: That’s even better.

Jeff McKay: Right? We’re an accounting firm. Then have three questions that you’re going to ask them and talk about them. We’re a consulting firm. We’re a strategy firm. We’re an IT firm. That’s all people want to know, then they want to talk about themselves. But the questions that you ask reveal who you are and how you work and what you do.

Jason Mlicki: For me, those were the relatively small things that marketing has ruined. Now let’s get to the big things.

Jeff McKay: Big things. Oh boy. All right, hang on. I’m going to sit down.

Jason Mlicki: So those are small things marketing ruined. But the big thing, marketing has ruined democracy. And I’ve got a couple of tiers to this comment. So the first is just that it is, I’m going to say scientifically proven, that’s the wrong term, but negative ads work. So essentially, politics has just become a constant on attack machine as a result of marketers figuring that out. And then I would argue that, I don’t want to be political, but I’m going to be, in an apolitical way, I’m going to say we would not have President Trump as president, but for marketing.

And there’s two tiers to that. Tier one is that he got tons of coverage from all of these sorts of outrageous things that he did and does on Twitter. He got that from mainstream media. CNN would cover that every time he breathed, and the reason they keep covering whatever he said, no matter how absurd it seemed to be at the time was because of ratings. So ratings drives advertisers, so marketing essentially enabled him to take office and then you layer that on with the whole Facebook thing and all the fake content on Facebook and fake ads, that kind of … So my argument is that essentially, at its core, marketing has essentially ruined what democracy was. So that’s the big one.

Jeff McKay: I think you’re spot on there. I would add one additional marketing approach that really set politics on fire. And it’s the concept of segmentation. The segmentation into these identity groups in order to build coalition, whether it’s suburban white women, inner city LGBT, white working class, college, uneducated. The political parties and their consultants have segmented with such detail. Then there’s so much data that allows them to do this, that they can pair together constituencies to get to a necessary volume, volume of vote in order to win. And they go in and they create messages that they know, as you described, Jason, that excite people to behavior.

But it’s the segmentation, to me, that is creating such divisiveness because we no longer see ourselves as a country with a shared vision of the country. We’re just parsed out into our identity groups and then those identity groups kind of aggregated back up into conservative or liberal, or left or right, or whatever label you want to put on them. And then marketers just pull levers to excite whatever it is. You said Facebook or Twitter or something. And it is just a machine. Let’s excite them. Yeah, let’s lead with some story that bleeds or that is antagonistic.

Jason Mlicki: It’s sensationalist, right?

Jeff McKay: Who ever would have known what a dog whistle was, but the term dog whistle really are all about marketing messages, whether they’re overt or subliminal. That’s all marketing science.

Jason Mlicki: Yeah. Yeah, you’re right. I love the segmentation comment. So I have that book, Microtrends that was written by Mark J Penn. And he was the … I’m seeing it on my shelf right now, and he was the, I don’t know what you call it in the political marketing world, but sort of the chief campaign lead for Bill Clinton. And they were the ones that really were some of the early adopters of that kind of segmentation you’re talking about. And it’s a really fascinating read. It’s a little out of date now of course, but to your point, they would look at specific segments exactly the way you described them, and then they would quantify the scale of that segment to justify how they would approach it. And of course in the book, it’s not really about the political cycle, it’s just about understanding these segments of our society.

And it’s really, it’s fascinating as heck. I mean there’s people … I remember, the one segment that always jumps out to me was the segment of consumers that drive, mega commuters. They drive at least two hours to work each day. So two hours there, two hours back. And the definition of the micro-segment is it has to be a certain volume of people. I don’t remember exactly what it is, couple million. But it’s a big number. And it’s startling to think that there’s that many people that live that existence. Oh my gosh. So yeah, that’s the big one. And I mean, you could argue that … You could make a counter argument that the negativity that’s seated in the political cycle has always been there. I mean, if you’re a reader of history, I know you are, that the notion of an attack ad was an op-ed in the 1700s, written under a-

Jeff McKay: Pseudonym.

Jason Mlicki: A pseudonym, thank you. So that’s not new. It’s not like marketers necessarily created that, but they certainly, like everything else, kind of just poured gasoline on it and made it a lot more powerful.

Jeff McKay: And this is another tactic fad in professional services right now. The ubiquity in use of personas.

Jason Mlicki: That’s marketing in general, right?

Jeff McKay: We’ve gone too far. We’ve gone too far with personas. People are so much more complex than these data points. And segmentation is a marketing discipline that’s really, really important, but it’s kind of like a drug. A little drug can cure your ailment. It doesn’t mean that a lot of the drug is going to make you super human. There’s a balance associated with the treatment of that, and I feel like the pendulum has swung so far on personas.

When I meet with a client and they say they have 11 personas, or they have whatever … But personas is a red flag for me that they’ve lost sight of their clients as human beings, and they are now treating them as data points, and that is a very unhealthy place to be in a relationship driven business. There are overarching world views that we can tap into in identifying our ideal clients, and people that will value the capability that we bring, but those are big swipes in my mind. They’re not these slivers that we see in political campaigns. So if you don’t want your marketing to ruin your firm’s approach, go easy on the personas.

Jason Mlicki: I couldn’t agree more. You’re entirely spot on. The interesting thing to me is the first time I actually ever saw personas, it was a long time ago. I was inside of Bath And Body Works here in Columbus, which is … Columbus is a big retail center. So there’s a lot of retail companies headquartered here. And they used actually a persona. They had a very clear persona of the type of customer that they were trying to attract to Bath And Body Works to the point where she had a name, she had everything you could imagine. She had a workspace at the office. I mean it was extreme, like they had all kinds of stuff.

But it made total sense to me because this is a retail setting where you’re trying to build an experience for this type of customer that you’re trying to define. It seems to me in the world of professional services, it seems like a forced attempt to implement that type of thinking, because for the retailer, they’re sort of a little bit disconnected from their customer. That’s certainly more than a professional services firm is, especially for the marketing folks. And just, I don’t know, it strikes me as you’re inserting something that may not add a whole lot of value to what you’re doing and I love the way you said, “Hey, the overarching worldview, it should shape things more than anything.”

Jeff McKay: The way you described that, I’m going to interject one of my things that marketing ruins. And this is particularly relevant given where we are now with technology, the introduction and GDPR and the privacy of our clients. There are so many ways to track the behavior of online activity or participation today. And we see it in our browsing history when ads start popping up and we feel this violation. And that is born out of a digital space. And that in and of itself feels like a violation, but in professional services we take it one step further. We actually follow our clients into their corporate homes, into their offices. And the best consultants often act as therapists or psychologists. You never know what a client is going to share with you about challenges they’re feeling at work, political situations, something that’s going on at home that’s distracting them.

You just never know what’s coming, but you can rest assured that it’s going to be something personal exchanged, and those data points are very sensitive. I feel like marketing has ruined this basic understanding of the buyer’s journey and has moved it so far that we are now reaching a point of being, gosh, immoral in some respects about what we’re tracking and how we’re using it to track. And we need to pull back or it’s going to ruin relationships. Seth Godin was all over this with his permission marketing. I think the best firms are going to slide back into that voluntary exchange of information on the most intimate level, not because you checked the box to download my document and now you’re opened up to all these messaging messages, but because I like you. I trust you. I actually want to build a relationship with you. And let’s go that route, not because I checked the box and you know that I downloaded X, Y, and Z, and you want to personalize my messaging.

Jason Mlicki: There’s so many levels to that. I guess the thing that jumps out to me is that we are, yes … I find myself rarely feeling violated by the things that I interact with online that never … I don’t really ever very often have that experience. My experience tends to be more one of when they get it really right, I don’t notice it, and I would say that’s pretty rare. Amazon’s the only one that ever really has the chance to get something really right where they sort of predict based on something you’ve done, something that would be of value to you. I don’t see really anybody else do that very well.

But it’s funny, an offshoot of what you said, and it’s less about the privacy and the data was … I was going to say this kind of goes with marketing ruins things that are special. Marketing has sort of ruined Google. If you look at the founding intent of what Google was and the way that Larry Page and Sergey Brin conceived of the product, at the very start, the search product that is. I mean what these guys did was they downloaded the whole internet at the time, which was relatively small, and then they had a hypothesis on ways that they could enable you to search this thing. And they figured out that there was a relationship between one thing linking to another and the credibility of that.

So in the absence of a computer being able to tell what’s valuable and what’s not the way a human can, these directional links were indicators of whether or not something was valuable, or good or bad, or whatever. And so they created the search engine, and marketers jumped on that instantly and figured out how to game it. And so ever since they launched the thing, they’ve been playing a game of cat and mouse for 15 years between marketers trying to game the system to beat the search engine and get to the top, and them trying to weed out the games so that they can deliver a relevant response to an inquiry.

And was actually, in the beginning, a fairly noble exercise, and how can we make the internet something that we can actually use better, has been completely destroyed by marketers. And then Google itself has probably kind of gone down that path a little bit too. But I don’t want to get into that. But anyway, that was just the one that jumped out to me as you’re thinking about privacy and data. That was the other side of that story was that I feel like the marketing community just destroyed what was a really great innovation. I mean, the ability to find anything anywhere at any moment. That’s unbelievable. If you think back to how hard it was to find information 20 years ago, it’s staggering how far we’ve come, yet it’s so frustrating how marketers have sort of grabbed that for their own use.

Jeff McKay: I’ll extend your … No, I’ll meet you and raise you. Marketers ruin every channel that [inaudible 00:26:10] do. Social media had some really cool positive attributes to it. Ruined by marketers. LinkedIn was one of my favorite platforms. I could keep tabs on people. I didn’t need to maintain a separate Rolodex. I could see when they had career changes or successes. Loved that. Now, LinkedIn is nothing but ads. And ads in air quotes, but it’s nothing but ads. There’s very little dialogue or exchange. It’s all ads and it just keeps pushing. Facebook is that way. I mean, Instagram is that way. Social media, to me, has jumped the shark. It will, we invented it, but it’s jumped the shark.

Related to that, thought leadership, and sharing of ideas, and learning, ruined by marketing. Now it’s content marketing. What used to be the world of big thinking, that you and I have lived in for decades, is now about infographics and snippets and stuff. And some of that’s good, but most of it’s garbage. Podcasts, video, these are great mediums to communicate through, and because we have the technology, we can use them. But now we see marketers and solopreneurs and people like that just whipping out a phone when they’re in the car, sharing a thought and loading it up to social media. It’s not well thought out. It’s just a, “Hey, I’m thinking.” To me, it’s just narcissism, sharing a lot of this stuff.

And you can look at all the channels that are that way. Events. I mean, boy, look at Salesforce, or Dreamforce. Do we really need an event that big? No. Marketing has ruined that. I was out at ITSMA in Boston last week, the IT Service Marketing Association. Dave Munn is the CEO. I was blown away by the simplicity and power of that event. 150, 200 people. Best marketers from the best brands. You could walk up to anybody, speaker, or peer, sit down, have a conversation with them over coffee, drink, lunch. To me, that’s the way senior level events should be. Things like Dreamforce are a joke. So I think marketing ruined all the channels. Look at television. Television. Oh God, don’t even get me started on television.

Jason Mlicki: Well, not go there. So, so let’s do this. So we’re running kind of a little bit on the long side. So let’s do this. Let’s change gears. So we’ve beat up marketing pretty heavily right now, and now let’s look at the other side and all the good things that marketing brings us and let’s try to end this on a positive note, because our listeners definitely don’t want to walk away saying, “Man, I am in marketing and I ruin everything.” So the first thing to me that jumps out is that marketing has enabled a mind numbing volume of choice and variety. It’s like you think about the world that we grew up in and the options that you had, and now you have more options than you’ve ever had in the history of the world for anything and everything.
I mean, the upside of the segmentation story is there’s a community of interest for everything. It doesn’t matter what you’re interested in, there’s a community out there like you that you can find, that you can find a home in. Any product you can think of, any service you can think of, it probably exists, or if it doesn’t, it’s so much easier to create it now because of marketing. So the flip side of all that is that the choice and variety is exponentially larger than it ever was, which just lets all of us sort of live a much better life.

And I think if you think about for firms, my Google thing, I mean Google’s opened the door for firms to be specialists and experts in areas they never could have dreamed of being experts in years ago. They can carve out niches that they never could have carved out before Google. And they can reach clients in ways they never could have reached before. So it’s enabling firms to be … Marketing enables firms to build deeper, better expertise in narrow slices of the market than they ever could have 20 years ago.

Jeff McKay: Well said.

Jason Mlicki: And then the flip, I’ll offer one more flip, is that actually my sense is that marketing has the potential to radically improve customer experiences in the next 10 years so that we’re flipping. We’re flipping again. So if … I read this article from Shelly Palmer, I don’t know if you follow Shelly Palmer, he’s a technology writer, and he was writing about how we’re exiting the era of mass everything, so mass … So there are very few, to your point, very few channels that can deliver a mass audience. Hence, there’s very few mass marketing programs. Hence, there’s very few mass products, meaning that more and more products are going to be increasingly customized and varied in production for everything.

And that’s a good thing. At the end of the day, marketers have the chance to deliver way more customized, way better experiences for the world than they could have 10 years ago, 20 years ago. Now, how that translates to firms, I would argue, one of the things I think about is that firms have the ability to deliver much more custom unique solutions to client needs because of their ability to carve out niches. So they can really speak to, as you know, there are people that have built their whole living serving very tightly defined niches of small customers and deliver much more customized solutions. And I think that’s something that any firm can do, even a firm at scale. And they are, right?

Jeff McKay: Yes.

Jason Mlicki: So those are the upsides I see. What are some other upsides?

Jeff McKay: I think those are really good upsides. You summarize them well. I say what marketing has done has allowed business to match the needs and issues with products that can help them. And you said that really well. At a consumer level, and at a business level, and talking about how firms can niche and help B to B buyers in a very unique way. We as marketers have been granted, I’ll call it … Maybe this is overstated, a sacred right to communicate with others and enter their lives around these needs, these issues.

And for me it is a noble calling that allows me and the firms I worked for to connect with people in need and help them, help them deal with problems in business life or personal life that allowed them to make money or do the things they want elsewhere in their life. And it’s one of the reasons I feel so drawn to B to B. What I think marketing gets wrong, and what we as marketers and business owners need to keep in mind is, are we satisfying a real need or are we being immoral in some way and creating a need or want that really shouldn’t be touched because it is not a product want or need, it’s something much deeper?

I think that marketing has ruined marketing because that extreme of creating wants and needs and desires, and convincing people that they are not enough as they are without this product. If you don’t own this type of luxury car, you’re not a success. If you don’t own this type of watch, if you don’t vacation in this type of place, if you don’t go to this type of school, if you don’t wear this type of perfume, if you have bad breath, body odor, stinky feet, dandruff, whatever it is, you’re less than. If you don’t have a date on Valentine’s Day or whatever, we create this and instill a sense of inadequacy in others so that they’ll buy our product. That is not a healthy place for a society to be and to contribute to it is wrong. And I think that’s where marketing ruins everything. It’s at that very root of creating an insecurity, a sense of inadequacy in others so that I can sell you something.

Jason Mlicki: I’m trying mightily to end this on a positive note and then you just took us back down. So I’m going to do it one more time. Try one more time.

Jeff McKay: No. Here’s the positive note, Mr. Mlicki.

Jason Mlicki: I have a very positive note to the story you just told.

Jeff McKay: Then we’re going to tag team them, because positive note is, as marketers, you have a sacred right. Live up to it. Help others in a real way. As business people, same thing. You have access to very private information, respect it. And I believe most consultants do do that, but if you go to market with that mindset, the rest of the market’s going to the extreme other side. Here’s an opportunity for you as a firm to differentiate yourself. That, I think, is a positive upside for marketing.

Jason Mlicki: I agree 100%. And the consumer story I’ll tell real fast is just Dove’s campaign for real beauty. The most powerful ad campaign I’ve seen in the last decade of my life. And what’s so powerful about it, to your point, is they leaned right in to all of the things that you describe that marketing has ruined and they said, “Okay, let’s just show you the reality of this.” And for parents, family on this, listening to this as a parent of a young daughters, it’s the most important thing to show your daughters is that campaign, because they debunk everything about modern classical consumer advertising. And it’s really, really powerful. And like you said, they took the high ground. They said, “We’re going to take the high ground. We have a responsibility to society to shine a light on really what things should be and to be something different than everybody else.” I have tremendous respect for that company for that reason. And I think you’re spot on. So let’s wrap. We’ve ruined this podcast.

Jeff McKay: Take the high ground. Don’t ruin marketing.

Jason Mlicki: All right, man. We’ll talk to you next time.

Jeff McKay: See you, Jason.