Jeff (00:00.235)
I don’t like it.

I don’t like it. So anyway. All right, we’re rocking and rolling. Yeah, buddy.

Jason Mlicki (00:08.574)
All right, Jeff. Jeff, I have a question for you. I have a question for you. Do you consider yourself a firm first marketer or an expert first marketer?

Jeff (00:20.834)
Yes.

Jason Mlicki (00:21.91)
I don’t know what the question is, but the answer is yes.

Jeff (00:25.044)
I consider Yes, the answer is yes. No. that’s a great question. Well, so we’re coming out in the conversation with the end in mind.

Jason Mlicki (00:43.336)
I didn’t think about it that way. Okay.

Jeff (00:43.946)
If I if if I were honest, if I were honest, and I like to consider myself an honest person, but never trust anybody that says, trust me, I’m honest, I’m a firm first marketer.

I’m firm first. It’s gotta be firm first.

Jason Mlicki (01:06.984)
One brand, one firm. You know, it’s funny because I when when I was we were setting up this topic. So the topic, I’ll I’ll set the topic is is are personal brands killing firm brands is is the essence of the topic. And I was thinking about the call we did a couple of weeks ago where we talked about great points of view and how I I came at it with a bunch of firms and you came at it with a bunch of people. And and I expected maybe I was like, maybe you’re gonna say expert first.

Jeff (01:09.134)
Well.

Jason Mlicki (01:36.34)
Man, I wasn’t sure how you were going to answer it. I I I I’m the same. I tend to be firm first, but I also feel like we’re in this moment where all the inertia feels like it’s to be expert first. It feels like it’s all like we did that whole episode on the decline of trust in institutions and and and I posited that it’s not a decline as much as it is a a shift, shift from institutions to individuals.

All the trust is moving to people. And so there’s seems like, you know, there’s a huge shift in that direction. And particularly, I would argue, small and mid-sized firms, there’s a lot of really strong reasons that to go there, to shift to that expert first model right now.

Jeff (02:30.601)
You just got my mind racing there ’cause I’m thinking small firm, medium firm, large firm, short term, long term,

And the momentum in the market is towards well, I shouldn’t say that because I don’t know what the facts are. But there are a growing number of solopreneurs. where the firm, the point of view, the individual are all one, that’s all they’ll ever be is solopreneurs.

walking experts, if you will.

But I just don’t think that’s it doesn’t scale effectively. So the difference is if you’re scaling and you’re building a firm, you have to be able to transfer all that personal brand equity to the firm at some point. Or you’re not going to be effective.

Jason Mlicki (03:51.286)
You know, it’s interesting because I as you as you were saying that, what I what came to mind was there’s this move in the broader business culture around basically how big a business can you build with how few of a number of employees? And there’s even some some big voices saying, Well, I I think I can build a billion dollar company by myself as an individual with just me and AI. And I listened to a podcast about this and and the the the host that talked about it said,

Jeff (04:04.759)
Mm, mm-hmm.

Jason Mlicki (04:20.095)
That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard because it would be horribly boring. It would be miserable to spend your entire life just you and AI and have nobody to go on the ride with you. So why would you ever want to do that? I was like, actually, that’s a really good point. It’s like, you know, why are you doing this in the first place? I don’t know. So yeah, but but yeah, there’s there is this broader shift to personal brands.

Jeff (04:41.611)
Not I’m not thinking about that. A billion dollar company by myself. That might be fun. I I could throw you to the curb and and and just build it on my own. That might be fun. I don’t know. For the introverts of the world. But but that’s a that is I I I think that’s a really interesting point. the outer limit of

Jason Mlicki (04:47.837)
Yeah.

Jeff (05:10.067)
solopreneur firms or very small firms is expanding with AI. so maybe I will amend my earlier conclusion. I don’t know, you you’re gonna have an opportunity to convince me differently this in this conversation.

Jason Mlicki (05:32.65)
Well, I I you know, as always, I think it depends, but but I feel like there’s when I first started to think about this episode when you pro proposed it, is my initial reaction was to look at it through the lens of size, like how big is the firm now to determine whether, you know, a personal brand brand poses a risk. and then I thought, well, why am I looking only at the risk layer? You know, maybe there’s there’s I’m thinking about this too narrowly, right? I mean the the pre the the presumption is that

Personal brands killing firm brands is a bad thing. Maybe it’s not a bad thing. Maybe it’s a good thing. You know, I don’t know. I mean, I don’t want to jump to a conclusion too quickly. but we’re definitely seeing one thing that also came to mind as we were thinking as I was thinking about this topic was if you I don’t know if you’ve noticed this, but most I see a lot of firms create me creating media brands. So there’s like the Eurasia group comes to mind. There’s a guy named Ian Bremer who is a voice for the Eurasia group that I really

And I I really like Evan. I think he’s a really great thought leader on kind of what’s going on in global geopolitics. And the Eurasia group has a media arm that basically is the brand and operating company for all of his his and his and his peers, you know, media work. And I’ve noticed that that a lot of companies are doing that now. And it’s kind of started with Gary V, right? Gary V was one of the early people to do that.

And so this notion that the people that make up the firm and build the point of view and build the perspective in the market and are the voice of the market now have a media brand connected to the the core of the business as a separate business to monetize that somehow is a pretty commonplace thing now. I don’t think that’s unusual at all.

Jeff (07:24.031)
It you used an interesting word there, monetize. so what’s the revenue model? I don’t I’m not that familiar with Eurasia group. I don’t know what they what they sell. they do sell consulting, right.

Jason Mlicki (07:37.651)
Nor am I, to be honest.

Consulting.

Yeah. It’s basically consulting firm on geopolitical risk at the at the at its core. but I I I to your to your point I don’t I don’t know them as as that well either. So

Jeff (07:55.98)
Yeah, so I I think what you’re monetizing, how you’re monetizing it, I think kind of impacts the structure as as well. but

Jason Mlicki (08:09.065)
I mean, on your t for your point, we’re we’re living in an influencer economy. Everywhere you go, you see people, you know, doing their thing. I was out in California around the holidays and I’m walking down the beach and there’s a guy standing in the rocks, and he’s kind of just standing there. And as I’m walking up, I see him standing in the rocks. And as I get as I get closer, I recognize he’s got an iPhone and he’s like making some kind of video that you know is going on YouTube. You know, so it’s like he’s not just enjoying a day on the beach, he’s out there doing whatever he’s, you know, so whatever he’s doing.

So we’re kind of living in this influenza economy and it’s definitely bleeding into firms, right? where you’ve you’re you’re taking individual experts and you’re you’re accelerating them or making them more visible. I mean, we’ve talked about that. so

Jeff (08:53.975)
Yeah.

Jeff (08:58.943)
As you described that, that would be a key data point for individual brands killing firm brands. because we’re influencers and influencers are the key.

Jeff (09:21.407)
And as as you say that, I’m I’m I’m just seeing the the firm is nothing more than a risk management tool and an accounting tool for the individual influencer brand, right? You limit the liability of of whatever the business model is, then you know, you have some accounting entity and that’s it.

That’s a totally different business model to me than scaling a firm when it comes to well, I think from business generally, but from a thought leadership and a point of view and a brand perspective, you’re not even thinking about how to position a firm. You’re worried about clicks.

of an indiv on an individual. That’s that’s a very different process and in mindset to go through.

Jason Mlicki (10:32.105)
Well, I I did I did I have to admit I didn’t follow your your commentary about ac accounting and risk. I that I didn’t understand, but it but where you ended up, one of my initial thoughts on this was that if if you were to start a firm, brand new firm today, like right out of the gate, if I were going to advise you on what to do from a marketing perspective, and you and you’re, you know, I’m I’m not talking like

You’re coming out of the gate with venture capital money or private equity money or something. You’re you’re starting a business, you know, you’re bankrolling this yourself. I would say that you want to focus on building the visibility and authority of the individual leaders of that firm right away. You would start there versus starting with the firm. Whereas I felt like 10 or 15 years ago, you could take a small firm and build a niche through.

the through content through search through blogging and make that firm visible, you can’t do that anymore. That game’s over. And the logical extension is really to elevate the individuals themselves and give them authority and put them out there through podcasts or videos or newsletters or Substacks or speaking and that combination thereof. So anyway

Where where I was trying to get with this is that like I think if you’re a small firm just starting out, I think right now that is the logical path. The most logical path. It’s not the only path, but it’s the one it is the one that jumps out to me as the one that I would probably recommend if someone picked up on the phone and called me and said, I’m starting a firm, where how where do I start? I I would say, Well, what’s what’s think about your your personal authority and your partner’s personal authority and how we make you more visible.

Jeff (12:24.885)
Hmm. This may be splitting hairs, but I’m gonna disagree with you and say I would start with the firm. and how is it, where is it going to be positioned in terms of its market focus given its capabilities? So this is going back to the prudent pedal go to market model.

Jason Mlicki (12:27.903)
Yeah.

Okay.

Jeff (12:50.197)
You have to have some kind of fulcrum, and that fulcrum is market focus. And you even alluded to it when you said form a niche. I think you need to own a position in the buyer’s mind as a firm, then the individual’s points of view, their personalities, their personal brands.

Should reinforce that positioning. I think that’s the proper order. I think that’s the mechanics of how it should be. There’s a range for those personal brands in order to run and and you know kind of be natural extensions of the thought leaders themselves. But if they what they’re saying and doing.

are not reinforcing and building the market focus and the positioning of the firm, then there’s no point. Now now you now you might argue that well, we start with the individuals, we see what takes hold, and then we’ll position the firm around those individuals. But I I I I think you start with, you know,

a business case for the the market positioning a segmentation of the market.

Jason Mlicki (14:18.617)
Yeah. No, I I totally agree with you, by the way. I I I articulated what I was saying incorrectly. you’re absolutely right. You have to start there. What I was thinking about was what comes next. And what comes next is how do you create visibility awareness leads conversations for the firm. And I don’t think you do it through the if it’s a small brand new small firm, I don’t think you would do it through the lens of a corporate brand the way you might have before.

Like for instance, I’ll just give very tactical specific examples. If you were going to launch a thought leadership program, I wouldn’t advise that you do it as a blog on the corporate channel. But I would advise that you have an individual or a set of individuals be the voice through a you know what I mean? And a visible voice, not just like writing it behind the scenes and authoring it from the firm, authoring it from them with their voice in mind.

Jeff (15:05.633)
Yes, yes, yes.

Jason Mlicki (15:17.417)
So I think it’s once you’ve got that so I I was thinking I guess a lair past what you said. I agree with where you would have to start. I I agree. You can’t you can’t just like, you know, take a collection of individuals, slam them together and start, you know, I don’t know, running podcasts or something and expect good things to happen. That doesn’t make any sense.

Jeff (15:35.435)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But but but but when you think about it, you you you think about the brands in professional services. McKinsey, Goldman Sachs, even an an Arthur Anderson, yeah. Well the

Jason Mlicki (15:38.881)
So

Jason Mlicki (15:50.431)
BCG.

Stantec, Ara, Gensler and the AE firms.

Jeff (15:56.94)
Yes, yes, those all are named for individuals. But when you look at those brands now, name one individual from those firms.

they were able to to make that transfer and now it’s about their systems, their standards, their collective expertise. I you’re hard pressed to find one piece of thought leadership at McKinsey that doesn’t have eight authors on it.

Jason Mlicki (16:32.169)
Yes. And and you’re hard pressed unless you have business relationships with them to n to name the authors. I mean it they I would argue it’s so I love that you went there because ’cause I feel like this notion of our personal brands killing or eating firm brands or something, there’s an interesting discussion at small at at the enterprise it’s a totally different game. I think that the la I think those those large firms have spent the last twenty, thirty, fifty years

doing exactly what you said, building out this huge monolithic brand, not monolithic, that’s the wrong word, but this huge reputable, well-known brand. And they purposely avoided letting individual voices take on too much of a role in that. And I also feel like in this AI era, everything’s shifting back to brand, right?

So I actually think they’re really well positioned at this moment in time because you’re even seeing, I saw an article in the journal the other day that B2C marketers are a lot of them are pulling back on their performance ad sped because it’s not working. And they’re recognizing that the late stage funnel stuff, the stuff that they use to drive sales at the end of the end of the journey or whatever, isn’t working very well. And they’re pouring money back into brand marketing because they’re now realizing that

Jeff (17:46.903)
Mm.

Jason Mlicki (18:01.139)
We’ve got to build brand authority, brand visibility, brand all those, you know, buzzwords or whatever you want call them. And I and that’s where the the AI era is gonna play out. The I era is gonna play out in the brand layer. It’s not gonna play out at the, you know, search engine optimization game what we’ve been living in for the last ten years. And those, you know. Yes.

Jeff (18:24.663)
Here’s where the tension exists, though, in professional services. The people are the product. We’re not talking about toothpaste and mustards and you know, cars here. These are individual people and their relationships that are really important. but you you you can’t have

A firm whose marketing position is, you know, we’re your trusted advisor, or as Towers Perrin used to have, building relationships, producing results for a tagline, which was just I I I mean, that’s that that you couldn’t come up with a worse tagline in my mind. But but that that would be what the research would say.

People want, they want relationship, they but they want results associated with with that. But if you just put that out, you’re not gonna move the ball because nobody’s gonna believe that. That’s where the personal brands, where they are the product, start to play the major role. but they need to transfer that equity.

To the positioning of the big firm. You know, when did that happen with McKinsey and Anderson and Goldman Sachs? When they were 200 people, 500 people, 5,000 people? I I don’t know what the demarcation point is, but I suspect as you move into an enterprise client base.

the brand takes on a much more important role. So if you’re a a 200 or 300 person firm going after an enterprise client,

Jeff (20:37.345)
There there has to be more to the firm than there is the individuals. And you know what what would be an interesting

perspective on that, if you if you think of of a firm like Jump Associates, I mean that’s not a huge firm, but the majority of their clients are enterprise, isn’t it?

Jason Mlicki (21:03.487)
dollar clients are our mega enterprise.

Jeff (21:06.977)
Yeah, yeah. So I wonder what Dave would say about this conversation. At what point did the jump brand become more important than Dave’s brand? Or has it? I don’t I don’t know.

Jason Mlicki (21:29.577)
Yeah, I I I I don’t know the answer to that either. I I I I I do think to your point, there’s a there’s a moment in time at a certain scale where the two are intertwined and and that’s when it’s really sticky. You know, you can look at McKinsey right now and you can say, there was a guy named McKinsey at some point, and you don’t even think about who he was, or even the financial institutions of the world, the JP Morgan’s the world, there was a guy named JP Morgan who it was like a

Robert Barron, right? Like he was not not necessarily a well-regarded man at the time looking back, but he sure they they sure play him up as if he was, right? but you know, there’s a weird middle zone that firms go through where you have to somehow get from the founder, the the leader is is the brand to the brand is the brand.

And we see firms at at at both ends of the ends of that of that spectrum, but it’s hard to to kind of like articulate what the middle is like, like what that transition is like. I mean, I’m sure you’ve worked with firms that are in that transition, as have we. And it’s never easy. There’s not I don’t I don’t I don’t I never found a very clear script on exactly how you do it. Like it’s like you do this, then this, then this, then this. I mean, it’s never that straightforward and that simple.

It’s all situational and you just have to sort of figure it out and figure out how to navigate it. I mean, some of it comes back to what we just talked about in our, you know, who are your next experts conversation. A lot of it is that. It’s, you know, looking for the opportunity to to to bring more voices forward and a wider set of voices. So it’s not all dependent on one kind of overpowering voice. so

Jason Mlicki (23:27.157)
All right, w w what what have we missed here? What have we not talked about and that that we should be talking about that I’m not thinking about?

Jeff (23:39.029)
I think the

The point is there is no clear demarcation point. There’s not like get get here and then then switch. It it’s a tension that exists ad infinitum. that you have personal brands and you have a corporate brand.

And they need to be synergistic. They are symbiotic. They feed off of one another. And it is not a problem to fix. It’s not a problem to avoid. It’s attention to be managed.

and if you have all of your brand equity tied up in one influencer brand, you can be successful that way.

But you have a lot of risk associated with it. and somebody’s gonna be overworked for sure. because they’re not sharing the load. most of the clients that I have have one or two thought leaders and they’re strong, and we want them to be the market face.

Jeff (25:14.933)
We want them to be in the market like you described. But I always start building the next generation, and we just covered this topic, the next generation of thought leaders. You have to start spreading the risk and the knowledge to others in the firm. It’s just that simple.

Jason Mlicki (25:41.418)
It it’s a I I’m gonna summarize some of what I heard you say. One is it it’s a feature, not a bug. So it’s not a problem. It’s actually a it’s actually a great thing because it’s you know, in professional services, one of the unique things about a consulting firm is that the people are, like you said, the people are a large I’m not gonna say they are the product anymore, because they are a large part of the product. And increasingly, I think if you look at AI native firms, you’re gonna see all kinds of firms where the product service

mix is unrecognizable to what it would have been ten years ago. So I I don’t want to say that because that’s not true. but but it’s one of the one of the few places where the people absolutely play a huge and pivotal role in not only the like the it’s it’s everything, right? We always talk about it. It’s the marketing of the firm. It’s the sales market.

Jeff (26:15.713)
That’s a great point. Mm-hmm.

Jason Mlicki (26:38.301)
effort of the firm. It’s and it’s the delivery. Now you think about other businesses, it’s usually not all three things. I mean, the people like you you go to a Verizon store and you and you work with people in the sale, but you don’t interact with the people in the marketing and you don’t interact with them through on a daily regular basis as you’re using the product, right? Like it, but but in a professional services firm, you’re you’re all three of the things are are are intertwined. And then that’s a little bit different. I I guess I’ll I

Jeff (26:58.042)
huh.

Jason Mlicki (27:07.901)
I I where I’m gonna net out on this is I don’t one, I don’t I don’t think that personal brands are destroying firm brands. I I don’t. I certainly not at the enterprise level. The huge firms that have been in the market for a long time, that is not happening and nor will it happen. In fact, I think there’s more mag there’s there’s they’re becoming more magnetic in the AI era. I think for smaller firms, you do need to think a little harder about making your individuals a little more visible.

Than maybe you’re comfortable with in the early onsets, just because of the dynamics in the market right now. but my advice in general is just to be purposeful, is be purposeful about the choices you make. Don’t fall into a model without thinking about it. You know, don’t just lean into the founder brand because that’s what everybody’s telling you to do without thinking about the repercussions of that. and know what you’re trying to do. I mean, if you’re trying to scale a firm in three to seven years and sell it, well, if

All the equity in the brand is tied up with the founder, that’s going to reduce the the value of the firm a little bit, unless the founder’s planning to stay. and be aware of that and be purposeful about how you would make your investments then. so to your point, I don’t think there’s a perfect mix here, but as long as you understand the the pros and cons of each, investing in the firm’s brand, investing in the individual’s brands, and you’re making smart.

decisions or purposeful decisions. I’m not gonna say smart because you’re gonna make a lot of bad decisions. Right? We all do. But purposeful, then you’re gonna be okay.

Jeff (28:40.056)
Yeah, yeah.

Jeff (28:44.994)
Yeah, yeah. I I I’ll go back to my point. I think you need to start with the firm’s positioning, it’s market focus, and then the thought leaders with an S need to build and reinforce that market focus. and they can do what whatever they want, you know, within reasonable parameters.

as long as they’re building that brand and transferring that equity back up. I think it’s that’s the key.

And and we didn’t talk about it in detail, but I think AI is also impacting the mix of this as as well. I think AI is pushing us towards more individual, more human brand and distribution of of that thought leadership. more personality associated with it. So it’s something else to consider.

usually think about one.

Jason Mlicki (29:58.132)
Yeah, I mean there there are definitely firms out there and you know them and you’ve worked with them where they work really hard to keep the people behind the veil from a marketing perspective. You know, they want to author everything from the firm. They don’t want to put anybody’s name on anything. and I just don’t I don’t believe that it’s realistic to operate that way anymore. I I just don’t think you can do that in this reality, like you just said. Because AI can replicate everything. And so if if

If I if there’s not a voice, if there’s not some personality to it, if there’s not some context that makes me want to connect with with with the marketing in some meaningful way, I’d be hard pressed to bother. so. All right. Let’s take this to wrap. What what what are your wise words of wisdom? You always have good wise words of wisdom. What do you what do you you know, if if you were I know you are. You you are

CMO right now we have fractional CMO. You know what would you what would you take away from this conversation? What would you say is the most important thing to think of?

Jeff (31:07.762)
I if I were ACMO and I play one on television, on a podcast. yeah, I play one on a podcast. I would revisit my positioning and make sure that I’m crystal clear as a firm on positioning. What’s my market focus given the core capabilities that we have now that we plan to have.

Jason Mlicki (31:13.767)
On podcast, y play one other podcast.

Jeff (31:35.872)
in terms of our performance envelope. and think about the brand gap where I am, where I need to be, and then think about

You you alluded to it, the the marketing, the sales, and the delivery, the IC triad as as I call it. And where are the individuals going to be elevated in order to close that gap? And what does that look like? And it’s gonna be some kind of quorum of thought leaders that

allow us to close that gap as quickly and as powerfully as possible. but I start with the positioning, I use the thought leaders to reinforce it and get there. then the rest I think just falls out naturally from there.

Jason Mlicki (32:41.087)
No, I agree. I I I I think it you’re absolutely right. All right, man. Well, I’ll talk to you in a couple of weeks. We’re gonna talk about budgeting next time.

Jeff (32:50.988)
Budgeting. Who wants to talk about budgeting?

Jason Mlicki (32:52.821)
Everybody wants to talk about budgeting, right? How how much money? No, no, I don’t ever want to talk about zero based budgeting again. That’s the the worst conversation ever.

Jeff (32:54.926)
We’re gonna talk about zero budgeting.

Jeff (33:00.11)
Are we going to answer the big question? where should I invest my marketing dollars? Hmm.

Jason Mlicki (33:05.075)
Yes. Yes. How how are you going to invest your marketing dollars? Where and how? Which will actually be an extension of this conversation if you think about it, hadn’t thought about it, but it it really is. So

Jeff (33:18.242)
Yeah. Yeah. Well that’ll be a fun conversation.

Jason Mlicki (33:22.057)
We’ll be. We’re gonna get spreadsheets out. It’s gonna great time. All right, man. See ya.

Jeff (33:25.048)
I love it. I love it. Okay, buddy. I’ll talk to you later.