Jason Mlicki (00:00.75)
Hey Jeff, what’s your superpower?

Jeff McKay (00:04.948)
Boy, be able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.

Jason Mlicki (00:09.144)
Can you really? I had I had a I had a college roommate who said his superpower was the ability to tap the exact amount of Advil out of a container every single time on when one drug.

Jeff McKay (00:22.696)
No, I would I would trade leaping over a building in a single bound for that superpower.

Jason Mlicki (00:22.754)
Yeah.

Jason Mlicki (00:28.002)
I mean it’s a pretty good skill to have. I’m not gonna kid you. I used to have the superpower of of supervision. I could see like forever, like way down streets. Like I could spot a a British phone booth from like fifty blocks away. I don’t even know if they have those phone booths anymore, so I don’t know if it’s gonna help me anymore. And now my vision’s not as good as it was because I’m getting older. But all right, well well, I wanna introduce our guest. And he has a superpower. So we have a we have a I guess we have a superhero on the show today. Is that right, Steven? We haven’t

Stephen Steers (00:56.545)
That’s right, that’s right. Yes, I have my cape. It’s you can’t see it, but it’s here.

Jason Mlicki (01:00.268)
I guess. All right. So our guest is Steven Steers. He is the author of Superpower Storytelling. president of Steers Consulting Group. And there’s a story around that. So I wanna hear that. and he’s actually here he Jeff, he was a a referral from our good friend at the business of software, Mark. he said, Hey, you gotta have this guy on. I’m like, okay. and that was about but that’s basically all he had to say. I didn’t really have to like

Stephen Steers (01:25.899)
Love Mark.

Ha ha ha ha.

Jason Mlicki (01:29.166)
Yeah, that was about it because I because Mark is is such a great guy and and he’s a he’s a great guy. So so we’re gonna talk about stories that sell and Steven so tell us. So so tell us the story behind president of Steers Consulting Group and then and then also tell us about you. Sorry, I’m just kind of like, you know, taking us, you know, down all kinds of weird paths here.

Stephen Steers (01:32.085)
Love Mark.

Stephen Steers (01:43.403)
For sure. Absolutely, absolutely.

I can’t wait to get weird. I’m super excited. First and foremost, thank you all for having me. It’s it’s great to be here with you again. And shout out to Mark for putting us in touch. Mr. Mark Littlewood, you’re an amazing man. We love you. Why president? it’s I don’t know if it’s a great story, but you guys have been on LinkedIn. CEOs get bombarded with terrible messages. As president, I’ve minimized the amount of messages that I get, even though I am technically the CEO of my own company. So I just don’t have to deal with all these terrible folks.

Jason Mlicki (01:51.309)
Ha ha.

Jason Mlicki (02:08.342)
yeah.

Stephen Steers (02:17.629)
scraping and sending all these random messages to CEOs. So that’s

Jason Mlicki (02:21.666)
See, he had to create a defense mechanism to get away from marketers, Jeff. See how it works?

Stephen Steers (02:25.079)
Well, so technically that’s not even marketing. That’s that’s poor salesmanship. That’s what that is. Yeah. But I’m a victim of it as well.

Jeff McKay (02:26.546)
All right. I’m I’m making a note.

Jason Mlicki (02:30.882)
Yes. We have a we have an episode the a recurring episode we do now and then called marketing ruins everything. And so that that’s always our ri joke. Whenever whenever something is garbage, we’re always like, That’s marketing ruined it again. There they go, they ruined it again. And it’s not I mean, and we’re marketers, so it’s you know, but anyway. well that’s funny. all right, so tell us about kind of like how you got to this moment, maybe. You know, you said, you know, you’re you’re

I mean, we’re going to talk about storytelling and sales. but we’re actually not really talking about selling. I think is is the other thing that’s interesting here is, you know, when you when I saw that the the the the headline, you know, storytelling that sells, you assume in the sale, but there’s actually more to it than that. So I want you to I don’t wanna keep us so narrowly bound by, you know, a a commercial transaction. So

Stephen Steers (03:15.058)
So much.

Stephen Steers (03:19.625)
Yeah, I I think commercial transactions are fun. I think they are the culmination of lots of work before then, right? So the biggest picture why I like storytelling, I’ll I’ll take it back all the way to when I was at my my eyes are at my knees, as they say, a really s really sh young, young man coming up in the world. We weren’t allowed to watch television in my house unless it was a Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. My parents were very strict on that. The one thing they did allow us to do was listen to the radio shows from the 30s, 40s, and 50s.

Jason Mlicki (03:41.784)
Wow. Yeah.

Stephen Steers (03:49.506)
So I fell in love with detectives, Sam Spade, Pat Novak for Hire, Gunsmoke, all these shows. I just love them completely. And I was allowed to play with my Lego sets and listen to these stories. And I didn’t know because I was a child that there these things weren’t actually happening in the moment that I listened to them. I came to find out later that it was people sat in a room smoking cigarettes, drinking cocktails, talking to each other. And I was like, wow. But all the visual

pictures they could conjure in my head and all the emotions they made me feel. Like I still remember some specific episodes. Like there’s one show called The Whistler. And there’s an episode called The Letter from Cynthia, which is about a a this crazy relationship and they break up and this woman leaves the guy for another guy and the guy shows up in the guy’s hospital and he has to operate on the guy. Like what just you can just feel all the emotions of this. I still remember it. I I was like seven. Like

Jason Mlicki (04:44.202)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stephen Steers (04:46.251)
I still feel the palpable thing and it’s on Christmas. Like it’s such a there’s just such an emotional tie that stories create in people. And that’s what just got me going as a young kid. And so when I would be playing with my Lego sets and the story was over, I’d be playing the rest of what I thought would happen with my toys. And I’ve taken that into the rest of my life to say, just cause this happened, what happens next? And so when we go ahead, you jump in if you have a question. Mm-hmm.

Jason Mlicki (05:03.234)
Yeah.

Jason Mlicki (05:11.266)
Well, I had question. I was curious. Like when you got into sales, you got into selling, did you have to check your storytelling hat into the you know, set set aside? Was that was what what you were told to do when you first got into this? Did they say, Well, no, Steven, that doesn’t work. We have a script. I need you to use the script. You know, I mean is that what happened or no?

Stephen Steers (05:21.853)
man.

Stephen Steers (05:27.959)
I’m I’m laughing. No, I’m laughing hilariously because my first sales job, there was zero training. It’s kind of why I do what I do now. I want to be the help I didn’t have. There was literally zero training. My first day on the job, I got a list of companies. I didn’t even have contacts. I didn’t have messaging. And they’re just like get meetings. And I was like, how? They’re like, figure it out. And that’s a one, that’s a terrible way to bring someone into your company. Let’s start there. but secondarily.

Jason Mlicki (05:50.286)
Ha ha.

Jason Mlicki (05:56.27)
Yeah.

Stephen Steers (05:57.836)
You know, after I went and threw up in the bathroom because I was nervous to make cold calls and I got up there, I eventually did it and I got better at it and slowly, slowly, slowly improved. But the storytelling part, a large part without saying the names of the company, the what storytelling was a part of the company’s ethos, but they didn’t teach us to tell any stories. So that’s that’s an interesting piece. I didn’t figure it out until much later, because when you’re young in sales, you think that the features are the thing people buy.

And what people actually buy are the outcomes that the features then support. And how do you bridge that gap? You tell a story. It took some years for me to figure that out. Like I just mentioned some things offhand by accident in some meetings and I saw people’s demeanor change. And I’m always a game tape person. I’ve been an athlete most I was an athlete for a large part of my life, even in college, and I would go watch tape and I’d go review things. And I’d be like, that was different.

What happened here? And then I’d analyze that. And then I tried again and it worked. Then I tried again and it worked. And so that’s kind of where it came from. It just started to see how people’s affect would change in the meeting. Because most salespeople are just like, I have this great feature. It’s going to be great. You should buy it. You can buy this thing, you know, versus, hey, what do you want to achieve? Based on what you want to achieve, here’s some ways we’ve helped other people do similar things, get great results. Can I share more about how we did that for them and see if it works for you? Which one of those feels better? It’s obvious the second one feels better.

And so it was a it was a series of errors and a lot of lot of trying and failing that got it to come out of me. And then I was like, like I can just be who I am and talk to people and tell stories about things and people will wanna buy stuff potentially. It it feels a lot more natural. And I I think that’s a nicer way to move forward. And that led me to write a book about it and to share that with more people all over the world.

Jeff McKay (07:50.132)
So Steven, storytelling as a approach, a technique has been around for some time. what’s what’s different about what you’re talking about versus what other people construe or misconstrue storytelling to be?

Stephen Steers (08:02.359)
Definitely.

Stephen Steers (08:16.407)
Okay. I think a lot of people think storytelling is really fluffy and opaque, and they think they gotta be Steve Jobs to be a good storyteller. Which, you know, if you can do that, shout out to you. But I think the thing that people misconstrue is storytelling is a the best way to create context with people. And so, for example, I’m a president on LinkedIn, I’m really a CEO. I don’t want people to just take that quote unquote CEO context that they think I am and throw all this.

ridiculous context on me that they haven’t taken the time to look at as an example. What storytelling allows for you to do, like for example, we’re all wearing shirts, right? If for those that are listening, we all have shirts on. You probably tried that shirt on before you bought it. Right? A story is a way to try on a product, service, or a thing or a person in a way, like if with what they’re saying, to see if it’s a fit for you. It’s the easiest and lightest way.

And when you have that, you could you start to build the no like and trust factor. And if you have no like and trust, then you can ask for more. One of the frameworks I like to teach people about this is is I call it the one push-up method, right? So if I met you guys at a conference in person for the first time and I was like, hey Jeff, can you do a hundred push-ups? Now, no matter what you’re your shape and you look like you’re in great shape, you’re you’re gonna be like, who the hell is this guy?

Jason Mlicki (09:43.244)
Ha ha ha.

Stephen Steers (09:44.056)
What is he talking about? Get away from me, you weirdo. Now, if I instead said, hey Jeff, really curious, weird question. Can you do a push-up? You might laugh at me and you might even do a push-up. And if I got you to do one push-up, I can then ask you to do two. Then I can ask you to do five. Then I can ask you to do 10, and so on and so forth, because we built that no, like, and trust, at least from the first thing. Maybe you still won’t do a push-up, but at least it’s an approachable thing that you can do.

And so a story is the fastest way I’ve found to start to build an emotional rapport with a person and get them to start paying attention. So I’m sure we’ll get into it with AI and everything else, but there’s a lot of the like the market right now is attention more than anything else. And if you’re not doing something that helps somebody stay for a second and stay and stay curious, you’ve lost the entire plot. And so I’ve found that telling some type of story.

Being an interesting person and allowing for people to try on like a shirt like we talked about and to say, hey, is this something for me? Allows you to then be able to ask for the next potential logical step of, hey, do you wanna read this article? Can I share this training with you? Et cetera, et cetera, so forth and s and so on down the line till eventually where you can get to a place where you can have a sale. And when I say sale, I don’t just mean a commercial transaction. W there’s a lot of audiences you have in your in your business life.

You have your prospects, you have your investors, you have your team, you have your customers. You’re selling to each and every one of them all the time, even your family. There’s a theme around how your family has values, which keep everyone together. how you stay stay your spouse, like the things you share. Those are all stories that bond us together. The more present those are and the more palpable they are, is the more people can adhere and the more they come closer. And also really importantly, you guys as marketers know you also want to repel people that are not.

fit for what you have. And a story is a great way for someone to be like, you what, that’s not for me. And that’s great because we won’t spend our marketing dollars, our time, our budget, our attention on people that aren’t worth it. So those are some of the ways I think about it. And in a market today where there’s so much AI garbage and slop and it’s so easy for people to make things that don’t have context. I think the the game now, as we said, is attention, but it’s audience.

Stephen Steers (12:07.839)
It’s how do you build an audience that stays around and subscribes to the story of you, your brand, and what outcomes you can help them achieve. If you have that and you build that and you harness that and continue to feed that, you’ll always have a place to sell products, services, or anything because the people know, like, and trust you because you’re a real person.

Jason Mlicki (12:30.286)
How do you so that was that was that was wonderful by the way. I I don’t wanna like just jump a and and and act like I didn’t you know. I I’m more what I’m curious about and I well I lost my train of thought, but was

How do you differentiate some of the things you do and the things you talk about from to Jeff’s point? a lot of what I’ve seen around storytelling is frameworks. You know, here’s a framework for a story that is tried and true and it’s been used a million times. It’s the hero’s journey. And here’s the elements of the hero’s journey, and here’s how you break down a story to tell that. But what I like about what I’ve seen from you and heard from you is you don’t do that. You don’t make it this clinical thing.

Stephen Steers (13:05.131)
Yeah, here’s Journey.

Jason Mlicki (13:16.674)
You make it a lot more organic. You say, well, no, it’s not about like having these structural frameworks. It’s about like you just said, it’s about getting people to know you and trust you and want to connect with you. But it’s broader than a sales conversation. You know, you know, our our listeners are professional services firms and sales is a dirty word, right? So you know, we’d so so yeah, so it’s broader than that. And and when I when I first heard you talking, what instantly went to mind, it wasn’t a

Stephen Steers (13:30.102)
Yes.

Stephen Steers (13:33.783)
Four letter word, for sure. As it should be, I guess. It’s earned its reputation.

Jason Mlicki (13:45.152)
a one on one interaction with a prospective client was more like what’s the story that I’m trying to sell to the broader market. It’s literally what’s the the story of the firm? If I’m sitting on the homepage, why does this firm exist and why do I care? that kind of a thing. So I don’t even know where my question is in here, other than just like how do you distinguish like like from the from that? Like how do you can cause you gotta kind of unlearn what people have learned, which is, you know,

Stephen Steers (13:58.615)
Yes.

Stephen Steers (14:02.231)
How do we get there?

Stephen Steers (14:11.927)
I think so too. I definitely think so. I I think I see where you’re where you’re driving at here. Number one is I think the framework stuff is really useful for those that can apply that to the way that they think and the stories that they want to tell. So I’ll never say, hey, don’t bother. What I find it can be very limiting and what makes people a little more apprehensive to approach storytelling is like, I don’t think in the framework, I don’t have a story that’s like that. That doesn’t feel natural to me. And I’m a big guy on.

Hey, it should feel natural because number one, it’s you. It’s your story. It shouldn’t be, it shouldn’t feel manufactured. And so where I think my stuff is different is I just say, hey, there’s four questions you need to answer and ask yourself before you tell any story in any context. And it’s really simple questions. And if you answer these, now you’ve started to at least build the build the blocks of what a compelling story might be for your firm. Again, it’s going to take some time.

Jason Mlicki (14:43.628)
Yeah, yeah.

Stephen Steers (15:08.971)
Some refinement, but it’s really simple. First question is what is at stake? So whatever you’re selling, whatever your firm is about, there needs to be something that is in opposition to what your mission is. So for you guys, for example, poor marketing destroys brands and makes people not buy your product. That’s a pretty scary thing for anybody in business, right? So that’s what’s at stake if you do not have good marketing counsel, solid strategy.

And and a history of execution like you guys demonstrate with your companies every day. That’s what’s at stake for anybody. The other thing is someone’s gonna win and someone’s gonna lose. You need to be able to diametrically oppose that and put that out in front of people and have that clearly labeled for whatever it is that you sell. Someone’s gonna win and someone’s gonna lose. Next thing to think about here is what happens if no action is taken. In a market like we’re in today, with AI tools moving things really fast, strange market.

If you don’t do something, you’re gonna get lost. I think everybody’s aware, right? Those are just some examples. So what’s at stake? Be able to label the stakes for yourself and for anybody who’s paying attention. The second question you wanna ask is what does your audience that you’re building, fostering, and growing with want to learn or achieve about the thing that’s at stake?

So, what steps can they take to be successful? Are there marketing principles that you all can demonstrate from all the work that you’ve done successfully for clients that always will be tried and true, that people need to pay attention to, even though there’s all these crazy tools that make all these wild promises? What should they be avoiding? Why should they be avoiding it? And how should they be thinking about this new approach in this new market based on the history and stories that you all can tell about successes that you’ve created for marketing in?

People you’ve worked with. Right? Once we’ve got that frame, it’s like here’s what we’re here’s what’s at stake if people don’t do something, here’s what they want to learn about it. Now we get to question three. How do you want your prospects to feel? Okay, so quick statistic here is 95% of purchasing decisions take place in the subconscious. What does that mean? That means that 5% of a decision comes from a logical place.

Stephen Steers (17:33.92)
Our animal brain is what really makes a decision. We have a feeling, we have a thought, we have an approach. We’re like, this is the right thing for us. And then we back into it with logic and numbers and everything else. But we have a feeling first. A story is the first place that you can get somebody into a decision-making context by labeling what you want them to do. So for example, we talked about winners and losers. If you don’t make a change, you’re gonna be left behind.

What emotion do you want to create for someone? You want them to feel FOMO, fear of missing out, you want them to feel scared? Do you want them to feel unprepared? Do you want them to feel excited? There’s all different ways you can do it, but label what’s the emotion you want somebody to feel when they look at your company, firm, outcomes, and everything else. Once you have that, you’ve created the framework and scaffolding for someone to make a decision. It’s not necessarily gonna be a yes, but like we talked about with the shirt, they can try something on and be like, hmm, is this a fit?

And here’s where I think everybody gets it wrong. It’s question four. They do not ask question four. I think this is perhaps the most important. You guys are marketers, so I think you’ll agree. Now that they know what’s at stake, you’ve labeled what you want them to learn or achieve, you’ve labeled the feeling. What do you want your prospects to do next? What action are you asking them to take in order to start the transformation, the next step, et cetera? So I framed it out specifically this way because most people can answer these questions.

generally with a within a half an hour of spending some time and thinking about it. And it doesn’t require that you run into some insane framework and get all scared and like, I don’t know what to do here. And so that just I think makes it a lot more approachable and anybody can use that in one way to tell a story, whether they’re talking to their company, talking to investors, talking to their prospects, or even inside of your house.

Jason Mlicki (19:27.458)
Yeah. What it seems like what yeah, you just said it. It seems like those four questions are universal. I mean, it seems like they’re questions that if you could answer those within eight seconds on a home page about your firm, where it exists in the world, that would be exceptionally valuable. It seems like if you could answer those four questions in a sale would be also exceptionally valuable where you have one on one time with a specific buyer. I’m assuming those you know, you

Stephen Steers (19:33.207)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Mlicki (19:57.878)
In a firm you want that to somewhat be lockstep, right? You would want that to you know, I mean like it’s is there’s gonna be variation, but I don’t know what my question is there again.

Stephen Steers (20:01.089)
Yes.

Stephen Steers (20:08.247)
No, 100%. No, I I I smell what you’re stepping in. The thing that I heard from my mentor, he would always say, Does this make the boat go faster? Right? So when we say that, that’s like a thesis for your firm. When you have your values, your mission, your vision, your milestones, which are great stories that people can tell, you have all these already. It’s just framing them in a way. If if you’re

If somebody in the company is like, should I go after this prospect? is this something that we want to do for our company? You say, hey, go look back to the story we tell here. Does this help this achieve get achieved faster? And it just kind of helps set the tone and keep people grounded in one specific thing. And I find that that cohesion is something that people can always hold themselves to as a standard inside of a company, the more it is refreshed.

Jeff McKay (21:03.198)
So if I have no stories, because I’m I’m a real analytical expert and I’m selling expertise, how do I get started formulating my first story?

Stephen Steers (21:05.495)
Impossible.

Stephen Steers (21:19.467)
Hey, I think there are three stories everybody has right now today that they can use in all these contexts. So the first is your mission. So you said you’re really analytical, you don’t have a lot of stories, you’re an expert. Well, mission is why are you doing this? It’s not what you’re doing, it’s why did you choose to do this as a specific thing? So you’re super analytical. Maybe you’re working at a big Fortune 500 firm.

And you hated the way that they would handle logistics. It was super cost cost inefficient, super time consuming, and it was wasting a lot of money for clients. That right there is one of the reasons why you’re gonna say, hey, I decided to start my own firm because I hated seeing people waste money on stuff that was inefficient and not useful. And I hated when my packages would arrive four days later than I anticipated with a problem that’s easily solvable. Boom. Mission. You have one.

That’s really clear. And again, what I think is really fun about this, especially for professional services firms, is there’s a lot of people who do what I do. There’s a lot of people who do what you do. But nobody has our story. Nobody has our why. And who you are is the most interesting thing about what you do, especially as a professional service firm and as an expert. That’s the first shirt or first piece of cloth, the colors, whatever that attract me to the potential story you have to share. So why are you doing this?

versus having any other thing that you’re doing. And everybody has a reason. It could be big, it could be small, but that’s what’s gonna attract me first to say, I like your approach to this. Okay. So so for me as an example, the one of the reasons I do what I do is as I mentioned, I want to be the help I didn’t have. I got a let go from my first sales company I I think let me see if I find the email here. I got

I I executed. I have an email. I have an email. So super quick, I I rolled into my office on a Monday. I had a meeting with my VP scheduled at 10 a.m. with no contacts. And I was like, I think something’s happening today. And so sure enough, I roll into the meeting, HR’s in there, and I was like, okay, I’m getting the axe. Cool. It’ll be okay. They talk me through all this other stuff. They walk me to my desk. And as I’m walking to my desk,

Jason Mlicki (23:16.981)
Rabi meu.

Stephen Steers (23:45.674)
I see one of the founders of the company and I go to shake his hand and he just completely blew me off. Yeah, I was like, okay, all right, I guess we’re done. And so I go to my desk, load everything into my bag, and I walk out. And I’m living in New York City at the time, and I’m walking down to the train, the J train, because I was working in Soho. And then I just happen to check my email and I see an email from said founder, which I’m gonna read to you now. And it says, I just realized I brushed past you on the way out.

I spilt coffee all over myself right before, so I was not particularly in the present. Sorry about that. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that you got the short end of the stick a lot here with respect to territory, vertical, and management. Too little, too late for sure, but apologies nonetheless. I hope your experience here was generally good outside of that. I think that with the right support, you can and will be an excellent seller should you choose to continue in that capacity.

In any case, good luck with whatever comes next. If you want me to be a reference, I’ll be one. So wild email to receive in many ways. But I was just like, man, what a terrible way to run a company. You knew that I was getting the short end of the stick here and you didn’t do anything to do it. Like all this stuff. And you know, whatever, it’s it’s part of my story, and I’m glad it’s there. But once I saw that, I was like, I’m gonna be a person to make sure any salesperson never has to deal with that type of mentality. I’m gonna create frameworks, I’m gonna have systems, I’m gonna have accountability.

So that at least there’s a standard for you to run into so that you can do what you do. So that’s why I do what I do with companies, right? And that’s present. And I look at that on a regular basis. And that’s a story that I can tell publicly to be like, hey, this is why this needs to happen. Again, it resonates with some, it doesn’t resonate with others. But for those that do want to work with me, it’s something that’s like, yes, I need that. And again, it draws and polarizes at the same time. So that’s the first story. Go ahead, Jason.

Jason Mlicki (25:29.208)
Yeah.

Jason Mlicki (25:38.356)
No, I was gonna say what’s funny, Jeff, is that we always talk about point of view all the time, how important it is to have a point of view, for a firm to have a point of view. And I think what you just described is is is kind of that. but what I’m laughing about is I just see so many firms that just don’t ha they don’t know. They have no idea like why they’re here. It’s they’ve been around for a while, someone started it, you know, I had an expertise and tax compliance and I built a firm around it and now I’ve got three hundred people and this is what we do and

Stephen Steers (25:55.423)
Yeah.

Jason Mlicki (26:08.812)
And there’s just no, they don’t really know. and I don’t think you can afford to be there anymore. I mean, I think there was a time when you could that was okay, but I don’t it just it’s just not viable anymore to to not be able to answer that question. so keep going. That’s I I like that one a lot. What I also like about it too is I out, you know, Jeff also knows I hate mission statements and values more than anything, maybe more than anything. I hate, I hate it.

Stephen Steers (26:16.023)
Agree.

Jason Mlicki (26:37.442)
I hate it on every level. And what I hate about it is how clinical it was. Like, you know, back in the, I don’t know, early two thousands when everybody had gotta have a mission statement. It was like and these mission statements were just worthless garbage that were just getting spewed out of corporations everywhere. And I couldn’t figure out like why does anybody want this? And people would say to me, Jason, you gotta get a mission statement for Rattleback. I’m like, why? Like why why do I want that? And but that’s not what you talked about. You talked about, you know.

Stephen Steers (26:38.295)
Jeff McKay (26:58.996)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Mlicki (27:05.046)
Your mission. It’s not a mission statement, it’s your mission. So keep going. Yeah, the two other I want to hear the two other stor the other two other stories that I can draw I can draw from.

Stephen Steers (27:12.523)
Yes, absolutely. The next one is your vision. So what does the world look like when your vi your mission is completed? So for example, speaking personally here, I want to work with 10,000 businesses to make sure that their salespeople and sales organizations have what they need in order to be the best sales organizations they could be. That means making revenue, have confident reps, not make sales a four-letter word like it is to most people.

It’s a refreshing experience. That’s the mission that I’m on. That’s gonna take quite a long time. I’m about a tenth of the way there with the number of companies I’ve worked with, but still a few more years that I can work, and maybe we can scale up with different types of programs. But that’s when I’m gonna be like, yes, we’ve changed the way people look at salespeople. Because I always find funny, some people are really nasty to salespeople, and I guess some salespeople deserve it, but it’s like you’re in business too, you have to sell. So why are you being a jerk?

Like it just doesn’t stuff like that doesn’t make sense to me. So your vision is is what your world looks like for your prospects or whatever, once your mission is complete. And again, that’s it comes from why you’re doing what you’re doing. That’s your mission. It’s not what you’re doing, it’s why you are doing it. And I think, like as you mentioned, Jason, most people don’t tap into that why they’re doing something. And I bet some of your listeners might be like, Yeah, why am I doing this? And they may change too. And that’s there’s nothing wrong with that. But if you don’t have a

reason you get up in the morning to do this and it’s just funny, it’s not that interesting and it’s pretty hollow and it’s gonna tire you out in a way that you probably don’t want. So and again, I’ve been there throughout my career in times too and just wanna put that. So vision is your second story. Mission and vision are your first two.

Jason Mlicki (28:59.832)
Okay. I also feel like I I would say I would say the same thing about that that I just said about mission. I ha as much as I hate vision statements, there’s a lot of things I dislike, Stephen. You should need to know about me. But yeah, but but but I same thing. I like the way you describe that. It’s like it’s like what’s what what has changed in the world as a result of you achieving your mission. And as a customer, like if I’m a potential client of yours, do I want to get on board with that? Do I wanna be a part of rowing that boat? Or do I’m like, I don’t know, I don’t I don’t know.

Stephen Steers (29:10.103)
Tell me all of them. Tell me all of them.

Stephen Steers (29:26.698)
Exactly.

Jason Mlicki (29:30.316)
You know, I I I want I want more I want more people lined up on on the phone over there, you know, drilling out sales calls. I don’t care what stories they’re telling. Just j just get me leads, man. Get me get me meetings. Anyway, so keep going. Sorry.

Stephen Steers (29:44.51)
No, you’re good. You’re good. And then the last story is milestones. So this can be in two different sides. So this can be you as a founder or a president, a CEO, depending on your title. It’s what are things that you’ve been through that got you to where you are? And what are those steps? So technically you could say this is somewhat like a hero’s journey in a way, for lack of a better term, something that’s familiar to people. This could also be things that your clients have been through before they got to you. So for example,

Jason Mlicki (29:53.422)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Mlicki (30:05.325)
Yeah.

Stephen Steers (30:13.781)
We worked with this agency that did not have any clients ringing in the bell, any inbound whatsoever. they were seven months from going out of business. We reviewed their entire strategy and saw they had a unique and compelling proposition that they never actually put out into the marketplace. We rebuilt their strategy around it. We put that out across four different social platforms, as well as re

Instituted their newsletter, and within three months, they had their first set of inbound leads, and within six months, they’d had their best year ever.

Are those similar results that you might want to find in your marketing?

Jason Mlicki (30:58.488)
Yeah, absolutely. Sign me up. Sign me up.

Stephen Steers (30:59.659)
That that’s an example of a potential milestone story. You can just contact my colleagues, Jeff and Jason. They will help you with all of that marketing your marketing needs. But just as an example, those are different ways that you can just walk people through what are the interesting inflection points. And I was spitballing that, so I’m sure I have more details, but just

Jason Mlicki (31:07.342)
Yeah.

Jason Mlicki (31:17.666)
I thought it was a real story. I kind of fell into the trap. I was like, wait minute, how’d you do that?

Stephen Steers (31:20.129)
Well, those are I read that case study on your website, Jason. But those are just inflection points of points of interest that are going to potentially have someone you’re talking to say, you know what, I want these results. So there’s a Greek philosopher by the name of Horace, believe it or not, that’s his actual real name, and he says a quote that I really love: you need to change only the name and the stories about you. So this could be good stories and bad stories, but basically if I

If I’m talking about great results that you, Jason, and Jeff helped me get with my marketing, and you’ve named me, I want those potential results because I can see myself as the hero, as the action in that story. And that’s the other piece of a that’s really useful about a story, especially in professional services. It’s the fact that somebody else got great results without you necessarily saying, hey, we did great things. It’s actually, you know what? Look at Tammy. Tammy’s business was here when we started.

Here’s the problems they have. They’re just like your problems. Here’s what we did with Tammy. Here’s what Tammy got. Again, that’s like the the shortest through line for how we might do that, but your milestones are how you affect and push your story out in front of the world in a way that provides social proof without you saying, hey, I’m great.

Jeff McKay (32:41.386)
You know, one of the things drawing from the parallel of Jason’s dislike for mission and convision

Stephen Steers (32:44.145)
Excuse me.

Jeff McKay (32:52.806)
and and one of the reasons I I share his disdain for those is those things are often made in committee. And and the results of committees are never clean and cutting edge and sharp. They’re always compromises of something greater. at least that’s been my experience. My sense is

Stephen Steers (33:02.305)
Gross.

Jeff McKay (33:19.998)
This that holds true with stories as well. These need to be personal and and and tight and and not generated in committee.

Stephen Steers (33:32.94)
Yeah, I I completely agree with you. And I think that’s a it’s a huge, hugely lost opportunity, especially for professional services folks, because you most of us are our business. Right? Like we don’t have huge teams. I mean, some of us might, but especially at the general stage most people are at, people are buying you first. You are the product, or at least one of the key entry points to the product.

And if you’re not taking that position as a with reverence to say, hey, man, like people are actually coming to me with a thing and honoring that capacity that you’re in, it’s it just doesn’t feel right. And so I would put any challenge out to anybody here. You you really want to resonate with people and get referrals, right? Which is an engine we love in the in the professional services business. That story is gonna be in a really integral part. Why? Because you know who you are.

And why you’re here every day. And that’s gonna be the first thing that any potential client of yours is really gonna wanna lock in on for how hard you’re gonna work for them to get them to the outcomes you promise. And that’s the first level of trust I think a lot of professional services folks gloss over because they’re experts. And again, you’re super smart and super capable. I’m not taking that away from you, but I don’t care if you’re super smart or super capable if I don’t know why I should care. And I think we’re missing that step.

a lot with professional services and even lots of other organizations as well. But I’d say especially in professional services because it’s like, people just know I’m smart and no, I promise you they won’t.

Jason Mlicki (35:09.378)
You know, it’s funny, I was thinking as you’re talking to I hear a lot, I I could hear a lot of people listening to this conversation thinking, well, you know, Steven, we’re too big to to do this, right? We’re we’re a very large firm. We have 500 people or a thousand people. How do we, how do we narrow in on a handful of stories or a macro story for the whole firm? how do you answer that? Because I know it’s not true. How do you answer that?

Stephen Steers (35:32.296)
The first thing I would say is if you think that’s the case, send out a quick email to a couple of different teams that are responsive to you, if you’re an exec, and say, Hey, tell me what our mission is. And I guarantee you’re gonna have 30 different answers or more. Or people will be like, I don’t know. Miss what does that mean? Like I’m just here to do this. And so I say that to say, if you don’t, if people don’t know what it is.

Jason Mlicki (35:53.324)
Mission, what is that?

Stephen Steers (36:01.099)
That’s why you’re not performing at the level that you think you should be at. That’s not probably the only reason, but it is certainly a contributing factor. And so if you’re a large firm, especially, there’s more cooks in the kitchen. You’re further away from the actual tactical places where these things live and need to be deployed, which means you don’t have proper visibility into your business. Right? There’s a I I love that, you know, you hear it working.

In the business versus on the business, right? Right? We we all want to be working on the business more, but I think we should all strive to be working above the business, where we have systems and dashboards and things that we can actually have a very clear picture of what’s happening today without having to get into the day-to-day. And so I think just that test of saying, hey, what is our mission? You’ll see we’re not all on the same page. Some people are rowing in diametrically opposed directions inside of your same company.

What does that mean for performance? What does that mean for recruiting people into your company? Right? You want to grow, you want to have the best talent possible. Everybody needs to be in lockstep about what that means or as close to lockstep as possible. And so I say the larger your frame is, I think it’s incredibly important to do something like a story audit, just like you might anything else, in order to just know what people think and are pushing forward in your company. They’re representing your brand.

And I’m not saying they’re doing something wrong on purpose, but it’s like you didn’t tell them what to do. So they’re not gonna do what you think they’re doing. And it’s gonna be very different than your own. So especially for larger firms, I think it’s important.

Jason Mlicki (37:39.756)
Yeah, I I saw a really interesting I I think I’m gonna I’m gonna jump on the back of that little bit. I saw a really interesting piece was shared with me about AI and it was essentially the the the the story of the market. And the story of the market is that AI is going to swallow services businesses based on market

economics, right? You know, so so the AI companies are are trading at somewhere in the ballpark of 50 to 60 to maybe 90 times sales. And services firms are collapsing down to one. So investors are willing to pay a dollar for every dollar sales most services firms have right now. But they’re willing to pay, you know, 90 for Elon Musk’s. What’s the difference? The difference is he’s telling a much more compelling story about the future and how.

Stephen Steers (38:14.644)
Insane.

Stephen Steers (38:27.638)
Uh-huh.

Jason Mlicki (38:36.022)
In this case, XAI and whatever else he’s got going on, SpaceX, all are going to realize this future vision. So there I think if you’re I’m saying all this because I feel like if you’re listening to this saying, well, this doesn’t apply to me. I I I guess I try to tell our clients this a lot. I’m like, it applies to every every firm in existence. You whether you’re publicly traded, it doesn’t matter. I mean, on some level, that that marketplace narrative that exists infiltrates everything. I mean, it infiltrates how

Every buyer g walks in the door thinking about, man, you know, we’re meeting with the consulting guys today. Those dinosaurs, what they know? Let’s go find the AI guys, right? that’s that’s happening.

Stephen Steers (39:18.463)
It it is. I think it’s super funny. Like I’m I use AI every day. I use a bunch of different tools. What AI does not have is context, unless you give it context, and it can go super efficiently in the completely wrong direction. So for example, I know a little bit about marketing. I don’t know nearly as much as you guys do. But if if someone who knows less than me is like, I can come up with a compelling marketing campaign.

Jason Mlicki (39:33.838)
Yes.

Stephen Steers (39:45.686)
You’re probably gonna do the absolute wrong thing 100% efficiently. Versus, if people like you build a program and then leverage AI, you get massive amounts of gains in efficiency and clarity for folks because you have the experience, context, and the pedigree to use it. And so I think a lot of folks are saying, AI, AI, this. Yes, it’s a great tool, but it is not it is not the answer. It is a tool to arrive at a

a conclusion potentially faster. And so I think for anybody who’s using it, you it it works well for you because you understand what to tell it to do and what to bring you back. And so I would say also just one other quick thing here. As experts, we’re always going to be in demand because we have better and shorter lines to get context and outcomes than other systems do with people who don’t. And I would also say and add a compel here since we come back to the story loop, the game today

Is audience building. If you have an audience, you have a place to offer your products and your services and whatever else you want to offer because you’ve built that. AI could maybe be a tool to help you do that. And obviously, your techniques, Jason and Jeff, for how to market can help you build an audience. But the goal should be to build an audience, hold on to an audience, and then sell into that audience. That’s what people are going to buy if you want to sell your company for multiples. It’s

How many people do I have affect? How many people are answering things? And how many customers do I have? Et cetera. Those economics will always be true. AI is really flashy and exciting right now and really sexy. It hasn’t made a dime yet. It’s not profitable. My business is profitable. Your business is profitable. I have a real business that’s not built on hype. So again, I’m not taking anything away from it. Please, AI overlords, if you hear this, I’m treating you nice, right?

Jason Mlicki (41:41.793)
Yeah.

Stephen Steers (41:43.65)
But just at this, at the end of the day, I think for anybody listening here who’s taking the time to invest time with Jason and Jeff on this podcast and to hear what I’m babbling about, you’ve already have the right mindset on how to be a better expert. And so take a lot of confidence in the fact of who you are, why you’re doing what you’re doing, and use these tools to get outsize gains in the marketplace as you build an audience. If you have one of those, you’re gonna be fine. That’s my hot take.

Jason Mlicki (42:13.09)
Yeah, no, I I I I really like the way you’re talking about that. All right, let’s let’s let’s wrap it up. I I guess I’d like to get I two last questions for you. One is, what would you suggest I do first? You know, I cut if if I heard this conversation, I said, Man, I really agree with Steven and what he’s saying. What’s the first thing I should do if I’m a managing partner of a medium sized firm or if I’m a marketing leader? What what what should I what action should I take in the near term?

Stephen Steers (42:21.921)
Yeah.

Stephen Steers (42:41.801)
I have two pieces of action. Number one is work yourself through those four questions for your business. What’s at stake? What does my audience want to learn or achieve? How do I want them to feel? And what am I asking to do next? Make that super plain and see how other people in your company might answer those similar questions. It’s probably very different, which means that’s something you all need to work on. The second thing I would do is create a story bank.

Jason Mlicki (42:46.071)
Okay.

Stephen Steers (43:06.987)
This can be from your customers, great results you’ve got, things in your own life that are just interesting. I’m constantly, if I see something online, like that’s an interesting story. I grab it and I put it in a file. As I’m building a talk, I have a more compelling example to cite or a great video I can share. I’m always pulling down information for great contextual anecdotes to be able to drive a point home. Those would be the two things I would say you could do today. And you’re probably scrolling on your phone while you listen to this. So save that pot save that thing you saw on Instagram while you’re watching.

And use that as a potential story you can do. Do those two things and you’re gonna start to see some things.

Jason Mlicki (43:43.086)
That’s great. And that thank you. And then where can people find you?

Stephen Steers (43:48.044)
Well, thank you for asking. You can find me on stepensteers.com, S-T-E-P-H-E-N-S-T-E-E-R-S. I have tons of resources and things all on that website. And also I’m all over LinkedIn. I’m the guy with the big hair. Yeah, big hair gets you bigger profits. Come find me there and come say hi.

Jason Mlicki (44:01.986)
Yeah.

Jason Mlicki (44:06.126)
Well, thanks for joining us. I really enjoyed the conversation. Always good to spend time with you and always good to connect.

Stephen Steers (44:11.637)
Likewise, Jason. Likewise, Jeff. Thank you guys for having me.