Jason Mlicki (00:01.569)

Okay, Jeff. I have a I have well, I always have a question for you, but are you a fan of Scooby Doo?

 

Jeff McKay (00:08.884)

Scooby Doo. Yeah, I grew up with Scooby Doo.

 

Jason Mlicki (00:10.421)

I was a huge fan of Scooby-Doo growing up. I loved that show. I would watch it all the time. And I actually have a a son who’s who’s a even far bigger fan of Scooby-Doo than I ever was. But I guess what I always liked about Scooby-Doo was well, one, it was funny. But two, you know, you kind of go on this little journey in a little episode every every week or every day whenever you’re watching it, and there’s a big reveal at the end, and you find out who the who the masked villain was.

 

What the what the, you know, how it all came together. You know, it’s I I I I’ve always loved a good heist movie. I’m a b I’m a big fan of the Oceans Eleven series too. I think I’ve watched Oceans Eleven at least twenty times.

 

Jeff McKay (00:53.493)

No kidding.

 

Jason Mlicki (00:54.909)

gosh, yes. you know, I’m not I I I I love that movie. I love everything about that movie. It’s one of my favorite movies.

 

Jeff McKay (01:03.33)

The as you watch it, do you learn anything new each time? It’s see an additional plot twist, a detail that maybe you missed in the prior nineteen viewing time?

 

Jason Mlicki (01:20.399)

You would think that. You know, it’s a it I it is amazing, by the way. And we’re getting off way off subject, but it is amazing when you re-watch something or read-read something, how much nuance you forget, and how much new you pick up every time. You know, what whatever it is. I’ve always found that really fascinating. Like it’s like, how did how did how do you forget so much of something that you’ve maybe seen many times or read many times? it’s crazy. But

 

Jeff McKay (01:49.302)

It’s a human condition.

 

Jason Mlicki (01:51.14)

human condition. So okay, so why am I talking about Scooby-Doo and Oceans 11? So we are actually doing a I guess I’m going to call this a live research initiative. we’re doing research to understand where marketing, the where the the future of the marketing organization, where marketing is going, and how firms should respond.

 

How what how would you build a marketing organization if you were building one from scratch for tomorrow, not for today? And I’m describing it as a as a live research initiative because we’re going to do a series of interviews with people we respect and we admire. We’re going to do them live, we’re not live, but we’re going to record them on the show to find patterns and identify what we think are the most likely scenarios for what.

 

The marketing organization of 2030, 2031 is going to look like. Did I do a very good job of describing what we’re doing here?

 

Jeff McKay (02:59.244)

Think you did. this is a big question in a changing world. you know, we covered a topic not too long ago on the podcast about how much should you invest in marketing? I think most people that listen to us ask that question. I get that of all the questions I get.

 

That is probably at the top of the list. and it’s a multi-layered question. and this conversation isn’t going to be talking about the programs and and initiatives in it. This is going to be talking about the marketing organization itself.

 

Jason Mlicki (03:54.372)

Yeah, it’s interesting because we’ve taught, you know, thinking back over the last two and a half, three years since I guess AI kind of took the world by storm. We’ve talked a lot about the impact of AI on marketing strategies and tactics, how it’s, you know, upended the the classic inbound model and how we’re we’ve kind of i I I like to say we’ve exited the content era and now we’re in the AI era, and marketing is going through a renaissance or a transition, just like it did at the

 

Birth of search back in the mid-90s. But this conversation isn’t just about strategies and tactics. It’s about the organization itself. Why do you have marketing in the first place? And what capabilities do you need to be successful over the next five or six years from a marketing perspective? And I also think some of it should be about is what I want to, what I want to understand in this research is.

 

Also what capabilities are inside, what capabilities are outside. You know, what what what skills should you be outsourcing and what skills should you be keeping in-house? I think that was actually fairly clear for the last twenty five years. I think it’s getting a little murkier than there was. So

 

Jeff McKay (05:10.67)

I think it’s getting a lot murkier.

 

Jason Mlicki (05:18.089)

okay, so why are we talking about this? Why does this matter?

 

Jeff McKay (05:28.834)

Well, if you’re a firm, you gotta write a check. so you’re making investments in growth. It’s important to understand where those investments are are going to be placed.

 

Jason Mlicki (05:45.483)

Usually you just make them out to Rattleback incorporate that’s my am I is that am I right?

 

Jeff McKay (05:51.085)

There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Or outsource it to a fractional CMO. There you go. That’s all you have to do. Take care of it.

 

Jason Mlicki (05:56.173)

There you go.

 

Jeff McKay (06:03.116)

I think this is important.

 

Jason Mlicki (06:03.161)

You know, one of the things as we were talking about this, I was thinking about is I feel like marketing has been

 

under duress or under the cutting block for like the last two or three decades. You know, it’s it’s the first place you go when times are bad, the first budget that gets cut. And it’s the first budget that gets rated whenever there’s a a new investment that needs to be made. if you’re technology, right? The marketing budget has been completely, you know, hollowed out for the technology budget over the last couple of decades.

 

And I’m wondering if we’re at a moment where this might start to change a little bit. and what I mean by that is I feel like when you think about you know what AI is doing, it’s sort of I don’t want to say commodities, I think that’s a little too extreme, but it’s commoditizing expertise. It’s making expertise much less differentiable. Is that a word? I don’t think that’s a word.

 

Jeff McKay (07:09.474)

I’ll take it. I’ll take it. It’s I understood what you said.

 

Jason Mlicki (07:12.655)

It’s less of a differentiator. That’s what I’m looking for. and I and and and the the the the point of separation is going to be client experience. And I see marketing as the front edge of client experience. That’s it’s the first, you know, the first interactions you have with a firm are generally through its marketing. And so the first chance you have to try this firm on for size is right there.

 

And if that’s your biggest point of separation, then I’m wondering if this is a moment in time when that starts to shift. It’s a hypothesis that I I sort of have going into this. maybe it’s just hopeful, wishful thinking. but I just I feel like this is a window where senior leaders might wake up to that and say, Well, wait a minute, you know, we’re

 

Jason Mlicki (08:05.109)

w the most important thing we have is client experience. And the most important piece of that at the very beginning is marketing.

 

Jeff McKay (08:14.902)

Yeah. I I I would agree with that. I think that makes a lot of sense.

 

I think you need to be clear about how you’re defining marketing in those terms. some people might interpret that, you need a really great looking brochure.

 

Jason Mlicki (08:43.545)

We still there it is. Does anybody even have a brochure anymore? Those are the things.

 

Jeff McKay (08:46.138)

my gosh. Yes, yes. People love their brochures. consultants love their brochures. I’m not sure that clients love them, but yes, people still want their brochures. And I don’t know that that’s what we’re talking about when we’re talking about marketing being the tip of the the spear. but to your point.

 

Client experience is going to be the differentiator and marketing is the tip of the spear for that. I I agree with you. I agree with you.

 

Jason Mlicki (09:27.523)

I I do think that that to kind of to your point, that frames what you’re investing in. So if you’re thinking about building the marketing organization that you need for the next five to seven years, you’re not thinking about building a marketing org that can crank out brochures. You’re thinking about building a marketing org that knows how to frame client experience, build it so it’s differentiated.

 

so that you can get the growth that you want, right? Something along those lines.

 

Jeff McKay (10:02.05)

Yeah, I I think you’re absolutely right on that front. We’ve talked a little bit about this over the the past year or so. when we talk about the IC triad, my language, that integration of sales, marketing and and delivery. but when we’re talking in this

 

series, we’re not talking about the IC triad generally. We’re talking specifically about marketing’s contribution and structure within that IC triad. I think that’s an important distinction that we are carving out a very specific part, I think, of the professional services operating model.

 

Jason Mlicki (11:02.999)

Agreed. I I was just thinking, my head was bouncing around. You know, we did that whole that series around the unified commercial engine and the idea that are can all these three things collapse into one entity. And and you certainly see firms, you know, anointing chief client experience offers officers, that kind of things with the idea that they’re that they’re unifying these things. I’ve not actually seen anybody really doing it.

 

a lot of chief revenue officers carrying the title, but when I peel back the the the vest, it’s just a sales job, sales leader. most of the time. That’s what I’ve seen. so I I do think that it’s wise to say what’s focused on on how marketing is changing and needs to change. Do you so let me ask a very clarifying question for anyone listen to this conversation.

 

What do we s what’s this research gonna look like? You know, we’re we’re saying we’re gonna do some research on this to get to get to identify patterns and give and give gets try get some clarity on this so that and I think the goal ultimately is is is to help help us all agree on well, what should we be investing in today to build what we need for tomorrow? because I think that’s still fuzzy.

 

Do you agree?

 

Jeff McKay (12:22.956)

Yeah, I I see this very holistically. it’s it’s not just a marketing question. I’ve already talked about the fact that we’re we’re trying to make investment decisions and allocate capital to grow the firm. But there’s

 

really important questions and and i think in these terms as a a CMO and having spent so much time in the human capital space, this is really about talent strategy as well. as we’ve talked about AI, we’ve talked about the evolving pyramid structure, and we’ve hypothesized what that shape is going to look like. There are very specific

 

talent related questions that need to be addressed. you know who are you hiring? When are you hiring? What are the skills that they need? So I think that’s that’s critical. But also what does that organizational structure look like from a marketing perspective primarily? But how is that integrated into the IC triad? I think those are all really big questions.

 

Instead of just saying, I need to hire a digital marketer or I need a PR person.

 

Jeff McKay (13:54.829)

And I think that’s why this is an important conversation to have for our listeners.

 

Jason Mlicki (14:00.931)

Now the research itself is going to be a it’s qualitative. It’s a series of interviews to get pattern recognition. And we’re going to do this over really probably the balance of the year. W what do you what do you think we’re going to learn? What what’s your hypothesis or or hypotheses? Share share some of the things you think you you expect to learn from this, this.

 

Jeff McKay (14:29.998)

Hmm.

 

I wish I had all the answers. So I’m these are pure hypotheses, pure speculation. But maybe that’s not true because I’m starting to see some of these indicators as a fractional CMO.

 

So I I think I formulate these hypotheses based on my own preliminary research or or experience. and the first thing is I I think marketing are organizations are gonna get smaller. and I think they’re gonna get more productive.

 

I I I don’t see how they couldn’t. I’m I’m amazed at the size of some of the marketing organizations I see in the professional services space. I’m dumbfind by how many people are on some of these firms’ teams. it just seems like a waste of money. And I I I think a lot of these these people’s roles, roles, jobs are gonna go away.

 

Jason Mlicki (15:52.128)

I hear what you’re saying in large firms. And I’ve definitely seen in some large firms that there is an incredible scale of an org that exists with specialists in every possible discipline you can imagine. And things move very slowly as a result of the scale of the org. So I agree there that I think you are going to see that. You’re going to see

 

marketing leaders realize that some of the specialist roles that they’ve that they’ve carved out, w whether it’s you know, email marketing or SEO skills or or or very transactional things in really large firms, you see specialists whose whole job is web publishing, right? All they do is just publish content. are are better served by like a an AI skill or an AI agent or an or a digital employee basically.

 

When I see small firms, I already think that they’re running so tight and so lean and so productive that there’s really no more squeeze there. And what I see happening in those small firms is what you said not happening at all. the squeeze will be on from the partners to to to to squeeze out the last drip from the onion in those firms, and marketing will completely

 

Well, not completely, will will underperform enough that they say, okay, we need to, we need to rethink what we’re doing here. because they’re not going to get the growth they want by squeezing it harder than they’ve already squeezed it. so I I think that that’s a new I I have I I I I I think that some orgs are gonna get smaller because they’re bloated. I think a lot of orgs are going to shrink and then basically like bounce back like a rubber band right to where they were.

 

with probably different skill sets, different people doing different things, but no smaller. in fact, they might even get bigger.

 

Jeff McKay (17:55.693)

Hmm. That’s that’s that’s interesting. I’ll I’ll be curious to see what what people think. There’s there’s two components in this hypothesis that I think we’ll we’ll look at. One is size, number of people on a marketing team, and two, what are those set number of people producing?

 

and that equation I think will be the the thrust of the conversation. If you if you have two people on a small marketing team and they’re producing acts,

 

X is not the sustainable amount. You need to get to Y or to Z with the two people.

 

If you’re a large

 

Jason Mlicki (18:54.105)

Think that’s the wrong way of looking at it, though. So I think that’s actually the problem with where we are, is that everyone is looking at AI and they’re saying, hey, we’re getting X output from our marketing team. we can cut headcount 20%, and we can get 1.8x. But the problem isn’t the output, it’s the outcomes. So what

 

Firms have to think about isn’t how do we get this marketing unit to be more productive and produce more with less people? It’s how do we get to better outcomes? And that’s going to be the big separation point over the next five years is we’ve we’ve left the content game behind the volume content play, right? That’s done. So now it’s like, how do you do better to get more outcomes?

 

That might be less. That might you might actually find that firms are that orgs are less productive in terms of the outputs, but the outcomes are significantly better.

 

Jeff McKay (20:09.23)

How can I argue with that? well

 

Jason Mlicki (20:12.335)

‘Cause I’m right. You can never argue with me, I’m always right.

 

Jeff McKay (20:16.374)

No, you made the assumption when I was talking about productivity that I was I I was talking about brochures. I agree with you wholeheartedly because

 

Jason Mlicki (20:25.379)

No, I don’t I didn’t make that assumption at all. I just made the assumption that you were talking about outputs. Because that’s we what produ productivity is, right? It’s outputs.

 

Jeff McKay (20:31.352)

No.

 

Jeff McKay (20:36.608)

No, productivity is results.

 

Jason Mlicki (20:38.947)

Yeah, it should be. It should be.

 

Jeff McKay (20:40.618)

Right. Right. That’s so I I agree with you. I I agree. We’re arguing over something that’s that’s well, I feel like you’re you’re you’re just trying to make up a point that I assumed was already there. so I I agree. Outcomes is what we’re try is the measure of productivity. and that outcome is more pipeline, more

 

Jason Mlicki (20:46.927)

So we’re splitting hairs, as you said earlier.

 

Jason Mlicki (20:52.557)

Misunderstanding you.

 

Jason Mlicki (20:58.927)

That’s fair.

 

Jeff McKay (21:09.056)

more sales revenue growth, faster sales cycle.

 

Jason Mlicki (21:14.253)

But I actually you said it was it was a point that was assumed. I don’t think it is. I think a lot of organizations, a lot of firms that listen to this.

 

would w are thinking in terms of outputs. Absolutely. Because that’s the expectation of the marketing unit, right? Is how many case studies are they pumping out? How many articles are they pumping out? Like that’s that’s how they’re that’s how they’re measured. So right or wrong, yeah.

 

Jeff McKay (21:29.998)

Sure, sure. I was not though. Yes, yes.

 

Jeff McKay (21:38.883)

Yes, yes. Your point of clarification is taken. I I I was speaking in those terms. So if you’re a listener and you’re thinking in terms of outputs of number of brochures and blog posts, that is not the proper way to be thinking about outputs and outcomes. so when we have this conversation with CMOs, we will pay attention to their language.

 

Jason Mlicki (21:46.5)

Yeah.

 

Jason Mlicki (21:55.545)

Well.

 

Jason Mlicki (22:09.379)

Yeah. I I I just think it’s it outputs and outcomes have been have been actually very much linear for decades, right? Like the amount of outputs you had increased your outcomes. I’ll I’ll come back to this is super random, but I’ll never forget. I always made fun of it. HubSpot did this research initiative where they this was back in like, I don’t know, 10 years ago, and they said, Well, if you have more landing pages, you get more leads. And I always would joke about that, right? That was the one I always made fun of.

 

Jeff McKay (22:09.396)

And how are they describing it?

 

Jason Mlicki (22:37.711)

And I like, that’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. But there was absolutely a correlation between the volume of stuff you put into the world and the and the volume of stuff of of what you got back, leads and pipeline or whatever. I think that’s broken. and it’s and it’s that’s that’s the probably the biggest thing that’s changing right now is that that relationship is going away. And as a result, I think it just changes marketing works a lot. and I, you know.

 

Maybe I’m being overly semantic about it, but I just I just I just I see a lot of firms where like that’s just still the metric is like, well, we gotta get all this stuff done because our belief is that this stuff is going to lead to the outcomes we want. It may or may not be true. So let’s move on. I don’t wanna I don’t wanna I don’t wanna beat this one to death. I think there’s other hypotheses you’ve identified that are are equally or more important. So

 

Jeff McKay (23:37.561)

Yeah. the the second hypothesis, and I’m seeing this play out all already. and I think the people that we talk to will probably say something along the lines that strategic judgment is becoming much more valuable. the execution.

 

is easier, cheaper, agentic, the production is much faster and easier, but being able to discern what’s relevant and where to invest in in growth is is going to be the premium

 

quality of a marketer, I think, moving forward. So less tactical, definitely more strategic. And by more strategic, let me define this definition before you jump in and take us down another tangent not intended. Strategic to me means broad understanding of the business and its growth.

 

Drivers.

 

Jason Mlicki (25:08.259)

Yeah, I think that’s I I I totally agree. I totally agree. I I think this actually is is a a logical sequence of what we just talked about is execution is going to get cheaper and cheaper. which means that coming back to the conversation about productivity, that just because you can do way more than you ever did before doesn’t mean you should. And it’s going to be harder.

 

for some firms. I mean, some firms have to have to wake up to that, right? I mean, I’m not saying that there’s a lot of firms, but there are but there are definitely firms that are looking at this as like, my gosh, we can we can flood the zone now, right? We don’t and you and that’s not but it’s not gonna help you. if that makes any sense.

 

Jeff McKay (25:52.825)

Yeah, and I d I think, you know, that’s the po the point of having strategic marketing guidance is less ultimately could be more. And being able to make those decisions is going to be the critical attribute of a strategic marketing function. Because there’s so much you could do, but you shouldn’t necessarily be doing it.

 

Jason Mlicki (26:20.781)

Yeah. It reminds me of like in during the during the content era of the last 10 years, how many times did you hear the whole conversation of like, and this is still going on, right? How many, how many different content types can you get out of this one asset? We did this research. How many different ways can we get this research in the market? We did this podcast. How many different slices of video can we get out of this one podcast? Right. And that’s like a that was a huge part of content marketing was.

 

How do you take one kernel of an idea and then blow it out into 7,000 different channels? And that noise, AI can do that like no marketing unit ever, right? But as a result, that’s that’s the that’s the AI noise. And so that kind of stuff is I think gonna be far less valuable. And so the strategic judgment about what to do and what not to do, I I totally agree, is gonna be the most important.

 

Maybe the most important thing that a marketing leader or a marketing organization can bring to the table for the firm. You know, that’s the essence of strategy. You always say that, you know, right? What not to do is the essence of strategy. You know? So

 

Jeff McKay (27:31.704)

That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. and I think it’ll be much more valuable. discernment. Maybe yeah, yeah. Third hypothesis.

 

Jason Mlicki (27:43.629)

Yeah, agreed. What else you think we’re gonna learn or we’re gonna see?

 

Jeff McKay (27:53.335)

I think specialization will decline and we will go back to the generalist.

 

But I don’t know that for sure. I think there may be AI specialties. but I think a lot of the traditional marketing specialties, and you alluded to this all already when you started talking about SEO, maybe even, you know, web design.

 

some content production and in writing, those things are gonna disappear, because AI can do them fast and and cheap.

 

Jeff McKay (28:54.712)

But I don’t know but I don’t want to say that specialization will disappear. I think some of the specialized roles that exist currently will definitely disappear.

 

Jason Mlicki (28:54.991)

So you’re talking about

 

Jason Mlicki (29:05.231)

You’re talking about skill specialization, right? Like

 

Jeff McKay (29:09.014)

Yeah, so for example, for example, I think if you’re a small marketing organization and you only can employ a certain number of bodies.

 

It’s going to be more fruitful for you to employ a body that understands the firm’s business and the practice or an industry at a strategic level more than it will be somebody that is a specific technical writer or SEO person, or a social media person. I think.

 

At least I’m thinking I would rather have that next layer up of business understanding, both a general business acumen and an understanding of the practice or the solution or industry that I’m taking to mark.

 

Jason Mlicki (30:17.199)

It’s almost like you’re describing not that specialization’s going to decline, but that it’s almost shifting, you know, from skill specialization to industry solution specialization, something like that, where you’re you’re you know, your your marketers are I mean, this goes back to your other hypothesis around strategic judgment, your marketers are more business.

 

people than maybe they have been in the past. the expectation is that they need to be, they should be.

 

Jason Mlicki (30:57.705)

yeah, I kinda you know, w when you threw this one out I was kinda like, I don’t know. And and what I made when I when I where where I was I don’t know was like I just don’t see

 

specialization ever really going fully away, just because when you think about the

 

The breadth of of marketing, the I mean, w it’s hard to articulate what I mean, but if you think about how you might market a business thirty years ago versus how you might market it now, it’s like you’re talking about two totally radically different worlds. It’s like in world one, you’ve got a you know, you’ve got a I’m just thinking of what comes to mind. You’ve got a swimming pool in your back world backyard. In world two, you’re running an aqua park in Orlando.

 

You know, like that’s the difference, right? And so I just I can’t see specialization fully going away just because on some level so much of what plays out is you’ve got you you you need someone with some technical nuance to whatever that is. But I agree that I think it’s shift I think it’s going to shift. I think you’re going to see some specializations being far less valuable and other ones be far more valuable. And to your point, business prowess and industry prowess or

 

Jeff McKay (31:51.48)

No.

 

Jason Mlicki (32:21.089)

understanding of clients and client types is probably going to go up in in value as a specialization, I would think. So

 

Jeff McKay (32:29.442)

I think so. I I I I see that playing out.

 

already. and you can you can just think in terms of B2B, B2C, subdivide B2B down into its various sub-industries. I think a deeper understanding of of what makes those industries tick.

 

and how marketing is most effective in those is just gonna be really valuable. and in and I I think that’s

 

that aligns with the solution structures of of professional services. And and I think it it will get even more interesting as more firms move to productized solutions, value based pricing and things like that. I think that that opens up

 

Some areas of specialization as well.

 

Jason Mlicki (33:46.179)

Yeah. Okay. What else? Any other hypotheses you have about what we’re gonna see?

 

Jeff McKay (33:52.717)

This one and and this one is not self-serving, but I do think it is definitely real that CMOs become more strategic and operational at the same time.

 

Jeff McKay (34:09.714)

Like we said with the specialization hypothesis, I think it applies particularly to CMOs. the real value from a CMO is not just gonna be the ability to orchestr or to I think orchestration is gonna be an important one, not just to operationalize, but to orchestrate.

 

Jason Mlicki (34:34.551)

I I hate that word.

 

Jeff McKay (34:38.446)

and to bring a much more strategic perspective, like we’ve already discussed, a much deeper and broader understanding of the business. When you look at a at a lot of CMOs in the professional services space, they really are functional leaders. They are not business leaders. and I think the CMO of the future is going to be.

 

By necessity a business leader, not a functional leader.

 

Jason Mlicki (35:11.545)

What what do you mean by operational? Define that when you say what do you mean by they’re gonna be more operational?

 

Jeff McKay (35:19.542)

I th I think this kind of speaks to our earlier conversation around the IC triad. the integration of the marketing sales and delivery functions and understanding how that works. instead of just being a GSD marketing ops person that knows how to

 

take inputs and produce outputs as we talked talked about. I think when you look at most CMOs, they’re really good at cranking out stuff.

 

The cranking out stuff is not what is gonna be needed in these businesses. operationally they need to understand the whole business.

 

Jason Mlicki (36:22.413)

I agree. I mean I I I agree. I don’t I don’t I but I don’t I don’t know if that’s new. Right? I think that’s always been true. It’s just not it’s been rare. And I think the question isn’t isn’t whether or not that’s changing. It’s whether or not the likelihood of that goes up. Yeah, you know, meaning that firms demand it. Now the real question I think

 

Jeff McKay (36:34.242)

Yes, yes.

 

Jeff McKay (36:49.442)

Yes, they’re no longer going to tolerate it is probably the best way of articulating.

 

Jason Mlicki (36:55.691)

Yeah, I think the well, I think the real question yeah around that is going to be where do those people come from? What I see a lot of firms do is take a senior partner and turn them into a marketer and figure they can figure and assume they can figure marketing out. And that never really works. And most of those organizations have a very underdeveloped marketing organization.

 

Because the person leading it doesn’t really understand the full context of what marketing is and can be. And on the flip of it, to your point, you know, in some orgs, you have a very capable senior marketing leader that doesn’t really fully understand the business, but is really good at running this large team that knows how to produce the output that the firm has been asking it for for a very long time. And they’re struggling to prove ROI and can tie it to outcomes.

 

Right. They’re struggling with that because they don’t really know how to do that. And that’s because it really f and f you know, candidly, because it’s hard, right? All fairness, it’s actually not easy. especially at scale. If you’ve got a big firm, it’s really hard to kind of figure out how to attribute this stuff. so to me, it’s not a question of if that’s true. I think it’s 100% true. It’s just a question of how are we either going to find those people or maybe more importantly, how are we going to develop those people if we’re a if we’re a decent sized firm.

 

because what’s been done to up till now hasn’t worked real well, would be my argument. Either of the two paths to senior leader senior marketing leadership I’ve just described has not yielded what you’re saying firms need. And so what do they need to do differently to get there, I think is the real question here.

 

Jeff McKay (38:40.194)

Yeah, that was the point of my earlier comment around these are talent strategy questions as well. is how do you invest in the development of the business understanding of your marketing person? Most firms do not make that investment. I would I would say no firms make that investment. CMOs and

 

Jason Mlicki (38:48.483)

Yeah, agreed.

 

Jeff McKay (39:09.4)

High performing CMOs take it upon themselves to learn the business. They proactively reach out and dig and learn and grow in their understanding of the business. I’ve yet to see any firm that makes a significant in investment in marketing people to deeply understand the business.

 

Jason Mlicki (39:36.792)

No, no. I I you know, I I want to take that even one step further. I I think that we talked a lot about the pyramid structure of most firms, right? The up and out model that’s defined professional services in a lot of firms for for decades and how AI is changing that, right? Like we’ve talked a lot, there’s all these hypotheses about what that looks like. Is it a diamond? Is it a column? The the the the gist of it is that there’s there’s going to be fewer junior staffers in these firms operationally.

 

And there’s going to be fewer fewer junior staffers in the marketing function as well, based on what you said earlier, right? So the the implication is you’ve got to be way more purposeful about your training programs now. Because you’re before it was kind of like you’d throw a hundred people in a room and just see who rises to the top on their own with very little guidance. Now it’s like, well, your pool’s only 20. So you better put some money behind them to figure out who’s going to merge from the 20. Or you’re not going to have a firm with all due respect.

 

Or you’re not gonna have a marketing function in all the respect that does anything of any value, right? So okay.

 

Jeff McKay (40:42.338)

Yeah, I I I agree. And and to me, that’s one of the biggest challenges and and one of the things that I want to probe with our guests is how are you going to develop these people? because it’s it’s the biggest it’s the biggest challenge. Well, I think number one is finding somebody with a learner mindset, you know, ambition and drive.

 

and business acumen. That’s the raw material. And then how do you develop it, motivate it, grow it in what is a very flat organization? I I I th I think it’s going to be a fascinating a fascinating challenge.

 

Jason Mlicki (41:32.544)

Yeah, I I t to to me the the the the biggest thing that I I see that needs to change and and I I am hoping we will see change on this journey is a reactive mindset to that problem and to a proactive mindset to that problem. The reactive mindset was they’re just going to emerge and that’s not going to be true anymore because the pool’s shrinking. So that like you’re gonna have to be more proactive about it than you were before. So

 

Any other hypotheses you want to share? These are all good. Except for your complete you know mistake on the productivity. But other than that, it’s all good.

 

Jeff McKay (42:05.282)

I think the the last one.

 

Jeff McKay (42:10.848)

I I th I think the last one

 

Kind of speaks to how we want to set up the the series and the research is we don’t want this to just be AI technology alone is driving this. AI technology is is a big part of it, but there’s a lot of other dynamics that are going on right now.

 

That I want to explore as as well. but I think one of the big things, and we’ve alluded to this in our conversation about the IC triad as well, is how does the organization change and adapt? How does it restructure? How does it take these decades?

 

Old mindsets about what marketing is or isn’t. You know, whether you come from the productivity school or the growth school of of marketing, or you know, pick your sales school, how does that evolve organizationally? and how do we begin to blend

 

these different roles that before were highly delineated, right? That’s that’s marketing, that’s sales, that’s delivery. Where now they’re all starting to blend in so many ways. I think that’ll be fascinating conversation.

 

Jason Mlicki (44:01.507)

Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. I’m excited about it. I think it’s gonna be a fun series. I think it’s going to be interesting to hear where senior marketers, leaders, heads are on this topic. in all the different firms we have lined up to join us in conversation. And I think it’s going to be even more interesting to try to, you know, discern the patterns from it because that’s where will really where all the action always is. It’s you know, you have seven, eight, ten, twelve, fifteen conversations and

 

what are the patterns that you take away from that? I think it’s going to be really exciting. So

 

Jason Mlicki (44:44.131)

What what how do how do you wanna how do you wanna cliffhang this? Because we’re gonna cliffhang this. We’re not gonna unmask the villain today, I’m sorry. We don’t know who we don’t know who’s behind the Tara Monster mask.

 

Jeff McKay (45:01.016)

Well, I guess I would I would put it this way. If you’ve ever wondered what’s the marketing organization you should be building, this is going to be a great series for you. because we hope to answer those questions about where to invest, what does the talent strategy look like?

 

What are the roles? What is the org structure? If you only have set amount to invest, how would you invest it to get the highest ROI? I think it’s going to be a fascinating conversation. And we’re going to have some great guests. I think with some very strong opinions about the answers to those questions.

 

Jason Mlicki (45:54.56)

Good news is we don’t have strong opinions at all, so I I don’t think that’ll be a problem

 

Jeff McKay (45:59.651)

Yeah.

 

Jason Mlicki (46:02.391)

All right, man. Well, I’m excited about it. I think it’s going to be a really interesting initiative. And and like you, I I I am curious to hear how markers are marketers are thinking about this and how senior marketing leaders are thinking about this. Cause I do think we are at I I I’ve said this a lot over the last couple of years. This is a pivotal moment. the way we’ve marketed for the last two decades is

 

Under significant change. And what you do right now will define whether or not your marketing organization is viable and thriving in three or four years. or if it’s completely atrophied and you’re way behind. And so I don’t I don’t think there’s a more important conversation to be having if you’re a firm leader from at least as it relates to your marketing and growth strategies, or a marketing leader for that matter.

 

Obviously. So thank you for for for designing it. I guess I’ll say I’d I I’d say you’re the lead designer on this on this on this research. So

 

Jeff McKay (47:13.176)

Well, let’s get to it.

 

Jason Mlicki (47:17.015)

All right. See ya.

 

Jeff McKay (47:18.638)

I’ll talk to you later, buddy.

Jason Mlicki (00:01.569)
Okay, Jeff. I have a I have well, I always have a question for you, but are you a fan of Scooby Doo?

Jeff McKay (00:08.884)
Scooby Doo. Yeah, I grew up with Scooby Doo.

Jason Mlicki (00:10.421)
I was a huge fan of Scooby-Doo growing up. I loved that show. I would watch it all the time. And I actually have a a son who’s who’s a even far bigger fan of Scooby-Doo than I ever was. But I guess what I always liked about Scooby-Doo was well, one, it was funny. But two, you know, you kind of go on this little journey in a little episode every every week or every day whenever you’re watching it, and there’s a big reveal at the end, and you find out who the who the masked villain was.

What the what the, you know, how it all came together. You know, it’s I I I I’ve always loved a good heist movie. I’m a b I’m a big fan of the Oceans Eleven series too. I think I’ve watched Oceans Eleven at least twenty times.

Jeff McKay (00:53.493)
No kidding.

Jason Mlicki (00:54.909)
gosh, yes. you know, I’m not I I I I love that movie. I love everything about that movie. It’s one of my favorite movies.

Jeff McKay (01:03.33)
The as you watch it, do you learn anything new each time? It’s see an additional plot twist, a detail that maybe you missed in the prior nineteen viewing time?

Jason Mlicki (01:20.399)
You would think that. You know, it’s a it I it is amazing, by the way. And we’re getting off way off subject, but it is amazing when you re-watch something or read-read something, how much nuance you forget, and how much new you pick up every time. You know, what whatever it is. I’ve always found that really fascinating. Like it’s like, how did how did how do you forget so much of something that you’ve maybe seen many times or read many times? it’s crazy. But

Jeff McKay (01:49.302)
It’s a human condition.

Jason Mlicki (01:51.14)
human condition. So okay, so why am I talking about Scooby-Doo and Oceans 11? So we are actually doing a I guess I’m going to call this a live research initiative. we’re doing research to understand where marketing, the where the the future of the marketing organization, where marketing is going, and how firms should respond.

How what how would you build a marketing organization if you were building one from scratch for tomorrow, not for today? And I’m describing it as a as a live research initiative because we’re going to do a series of interviews with people we respect and we admire. We’re going to do them live, we’re not live, but we’re going to record them on the show to find patterns and identify what we think are the most likely scenarios for what.

The marketing organization of 2030, 2031 is going to look like. Did I do a very good job of describing what we’re doing here?

Jeff McKay (02:59.244)
Think you did. this is a big question in a changing world. you know, we covered a topic not too long ago on the podcast about how much should you invest in marketing? I think most people that listen to us ask that question. I get that of all the questions I get.

That is probably at the top of the list. and it’s a multi-layered question. and this conversation isn’t going to be talking about the programs and and initiatives in it. This is going to be talking about the marketing organization itself.

Jason Mlicki (03:54.372)
Yeah, it’s interesting because we’ve taught, you know, thinking back over the last two and a half, three years since I guess AI kind of took the world by storm. We’ve talked a lot about the impact of AI on marketing strategies and tactics, how it’s, you know, upended the the classic inbound model and how we’re we’ve kind of i I I like to say we’ve exited the content era and now we’re in the AI era, and marketing is going through a renaissance or a transition, just like it did at the

Birth of search back in the mid-90s. But this conversation isn’t just about strategies and tactics. It’s about the organization itself. Why do you have marketing in the first place? And what capabilities do you need to be successful over the next five or six years from a marketing perspective? And I also think some of it should be about is what I want to, what I want to understand in this research is.

Also what capabilities are inside, what capabilities are outside. You know, what what what skills should you be outsourcing and what skills should you be keeping in-house? I think that was actually fairly clear for the last twenty five years. I think it’s getting a little murkier than there was. So

Jeff McKay (05:10.67)
I think it’s getting a lot murkier.

Jason Mlicki (05:18.089)
okay, so why are we talking about this? Why does this matter?

Jeff McKay (05:28.834)
Well, if you’re a firm, you gotta write a check. so you’re making investments in growth. It’s important to understand where those investments are are going to be placed.

Jason Mlicki (05:45.483)
Usually you just make them out to Rattleback incorporate that’s my am I is that am I right?

Jeff McKay (05:51.085)
There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Or outsource it to a fractional CMO. There you go. That’s all you have to do. Take care of it.

Jason Mlicki (05:56.173)
There you go.

Jeff McKay (06:03.116)
I think this is important.

Jason Mlicki (06:03.161)
You know, one of the things as we were talking about this, I was thinking about is I feel like marketing has been

under duress or under the cutting block for like the last two or three decades. You know, it’s it’s the first place you go when times are bad, the first budget that gets cut. And it’s the first budget that gets rated whenever there’s a a new investment that needs to be made. if you’re technology, right? The marketing budget has been completely, you know, hollowed out for the technology budget over the last couple of decades.

And I’m wondering if we’re at a moment where this might start to change a little bit. and what I mean by that is I feel like when you think about you know what AI is doing, it’s sort of I don’t want to say commodities, I think that’s a little too extreme, but it’s commoditizing expertise. It’s making expertise much less differentiable. Is that a word? I don’t think that’s a word.

Jeff McKay (07:09.474)
I’ll take it. I’ll take it. It’s I understood what you said.

Jason Mlicki (07:12.655)
It’s less of a differentiator. That’s what I’m looking for. and I and and and the the the the point of separation is going to be client experience. And I see marketing as the front edge of client experience. That’s it’s the first, you know, the first interactions you have with a firm are generally through its marketing. And so the first chance you have to try this firm on for size is right there.

And if that’s your biggest point of separation, then I’m wondering if this is a moment in time when that starts to shift. It’s a hypothesis that I I sort of have going into this. maybe it’s just hopeful, wishful thinking. but I just I feel like this is a window where senior leaders might wake up to that and say, Well, wait a minute, you know, we’re

Jason Mlicki (08:05.109)
w the most important thing we have is client experience. And the most important piece of that at the very beginning is marketing.

Jeff McKay (08:14.902)
Yeah. I I I would agree with that. I think that makes a lot of sense.

I think you need to be clear about how you’re defining marketing in those terms. some people might interpret that, you need a really great looking brochure.

Jason Mlicki (08:43.545)
We still there it is. Does anybody even have a brochure anymore? Those are the things.

Jeff McKay (08:46.138)
my gosh. Yes, yes. People love their brochures. consultants love their brochures. I’m not sure that clients love them, but yes, people still want their brochures. And I don’t know that that’s what we’re talking about when we’re talking about marketing being the tip of the the spear. but to your point.

Client experience is going to be the differentiator and marketing is the tip of the spear for that. I I agree with you. I agree with you.

Jason Mlicki (09:27.523)
I I do think that that to kind of to your point, that frames what you’re investing in. So if you’re thinking about building the marketing organization that you need for the next five to seven years, you’re not thinking about building a marketing org that can crank out brochures. You’re thinking about building a marketing org that knows how to frame client experience, build it so it’s differentiated.

so that you can get the growth that you want, right? Something along those lines.

Jeff McKay (10:02.05)
Yeah, I I think you’re absolutely right on that front. We’ve talked a little bit about this over the the past year or so. when we talk about the IC triad, my language, that integration of sales, marketing and and delivery. but when we’re talking in this

series, we’re not talking about the IC triad generally. We’re talking specifically about marketing’s contribution and structure within that IC triad. I think that’s an important distinction that we are carving out a very specific part, I think, of the professional services operating model.

Jason Mlicki (11:02.999)
Agreed. I I was just thinking, my head was bouncing around. You know, we did that whole that series around the unified commercial engine and the idea that are can all these three things collapse into one entity. And and you certainly see firms, you know, anointing chief client experience offers officers, that kind of things with the idea that they’re that they’re unifying these things. I’ve not actually seen anybody really doing it.

a lot of chief revenue officers carrying the title, but when I peel back the the the vest, it’s just a sales job, sales leader. most of the time. That’s what I’ve seen. so I I do think that it’s wise to say what’s focused on on how marketing is changing and needs to change. Do you so let me ask a very clarifying question for anyone listen to this conversation.

What do we s what’s this research gonna look like? You know, we’re we’re saying we’re gonna do some research on this to get to get to identify patterns and give and give gets try get some clarity on this so that and I think the goal ultimately is is is to help help us all agree on well, what should we be investing in today to build what we need for tomorrow? because I think that’s still fuzzy.

Do you agree?

Jeff McKay (12:22.956)
Yeah, I I see this very holistically. it’s it’s not just a marketing question. I’ve already talked about the fact that we’re we’re trying to make investment decisions and allocate capital to grow the firm. But there’s

really important questions and and i think in these terms as a a CMO and having spent so much time in the human capital space, this is really about talent strategy as well. as we’ve talked about AI, we’ve talked about the evolving pyramid structure, and we’ve hypothesized what that shape is going to look like. There are very specific

talent related questions that need to be addressed. you know who are you hiring? When are you hiring? What are the skills that they need? So I think that’s that’s critical. But also what does that organizational structure look like from a marketing perspective primarily? But how is that integrated into the IC triad? I think those are all really big questions.

Instead of just saying, I need to hire a digital marketer or I need a PR person.

Jeff McKay (13:54.829)
And I think that’s why this is an important conversation to have for our listeners.

Jason Mlicki (14:00.931)
Now the research itself is going to be a it’s qualitative. It’s a series of interviews to get pattern recognition. And we’re going to do this over really probably the balance of the year. W what do you what do you think we’re going to learn? What what’s your hypothesis or or hypotheses? Share share some of the things you think you you expect to learn from this, this.

Jeff McKay (14:29.998)
Hmm.

I wish I had all the answers. So I’m these are pure hypotheses, pure speculation. But maybe that’s not true because I’m starting to see some of these indicators as a fractional CMO.

So I I think I formulate these hypotheses based on my own preliminary research or or experience. and the first thing is I I think marketing are organizations are gonna get smaller. and I think they’re gonna get more productive.

I I I don’t see how they couldn’t. I’m I’m amazed at the size of some of the marketing organizations I see in the professional services space. I’m dumbfind by how many people are on some of these firms’ teams. it just seems like a waste of money. And I I I think a lot of these these people’s roles, roles, jobs are gonna go away.

Jason Mlicki (15:52.128)
I hear what you’re saying in large firms. And I’ve definitely seen in some large firms that there is an incredible scale of an org that exists with specialists in every possible discipline you can imagine. And things move very slowly as a result of the scale of the org. So I agree there that I think you are going to see that. You’re going to see

marketing leaders realize that some of the specialist roles that they’ve that they’ve carved out, w whether it’s you know, email marketing or SEO skills or or or very transactional things in really large firms, you see specialists whose whole job is web publishing, right? All they do is just publish content. are are better served by like a an AI skill or an AI agent or an or a digital employee basically.

When I see small firms, I already think that they’re running so tight and so lean and so productive that there’s really no more squeeze there. And what I see happening in those small firms is what you said not happening at all. the squeeze will be on from the partners to to to to squeeze out the last drip from the onion in those firms, and marketing will completely

Well, not completely, will will underperform enough that they say, okay, we need to, we need to rethink what we’re doing here. because they’re not going to get the growth they want by squeezing it harder than they’ve already squeezed it. so I I think that that’s a new I I have I I I I I think that some orgs are gonna get smaller because they’re bloated. I think a lot of orgs are going to shrink and then basically like bounce back like a rubber band right to where they were.

with probably different skill sets, different people doing different things, but no smaller. in fact, they might even get bigger.

Jeff McKay (17:55.693)
Hmm. That’s that’s that’s interesting. I’ll I’ll be curious to see what what people think. There’s there’s two components in this hypothesis that I think we’ll we’ll look at. One is size, number of people on a marketing team, and two, what are those set number of people producing?

and that equation I think will be the the thrust of the conversation. If you if you have two people on a small marketing team and they’re producing acts,

X is not the sustainable amount. You need to get to Y or to Z with the two people.

If you’re a large

Jason Mlicki (18:54.105)
Think that’s the wrong way of looking at it, though. So I think that’s actually the problem with where we are, is that everyone is looking at AI and they’re saying, hey, we’re getting X output from our marketing team. we can cut headcount 20%, and we can get 1.8x. But the problem isn’t the output, it’s the outcomes. So what

Firms have to think about isn’t how do we get this marketing unit to be more productive and produce more with less people? It’s how do we get to better outcomes? And that’s going to be the big separation point over the next five years is we’ve we’ve left the content game behind the volume content play, right? That’s done. So now it’s like, how do you do better to get more outcomes?

That might be less. That might you might actually find that firms are that orgs are less productive in terms of the outputs, but the outcomes are significantly better.

Jeff McKay (20:09.23)
How can I argue with that? well

Jason Mlicki (20:12.335)
‘Cause I’m right. You can never argue with me, I’m always right.

Jeff McKay (20:16.374)
No, you made the assumption when I was talking about productivity that I was I I was talking about brochures. I agree with you wholeheartedly because

Jason Mlicki (20:25.379)
No, I don’t I didn’t make that assumption at all. I just made the assumption that you were talking about outputs. Because that’s we what produ productivity is, right? It’s outputs.

Jeff McKay (20:31.352)
No.

Jeff McKay (20:36.608)
No, productivity is results.

Jason Mlicki (20:38.947)
Yeah, it should be. It should be.

Jeff McKay (20:40.618)
Right. Right. That’s so I I agree with you. I I agree. We’re arguing over something that’s that’s well, I feel like you’re you’re you’re just trying to make up a point that I assumed was already there. so I I agree. Outcomes is what we’re try is the measure of productivity. and that outcome is more pipeline, more

Jason Mlicki (20:46.927)
So we’re splitting hairs, as you said earlier.

Jason Mlicki (20:52.557)
Misunderstanding you.

Jason Mlicki (20:58.927)
That’s fair.

Jeff McKay (21:09.056)
more sales revenue growth, faster sales cycle.

Jason Mlicki (21:14.253)
But I actually you said it was it was a point that was assumed. I don’t think it is. I think a lot of organizations, a lot of firms that listen to this.

would w are thinking in terms of outputs. Absolutely. Because that’s the expectation of the marketing unit, right? Is how many case studies are they pumping out? How many articles are they pumping out? Like that’s that’s how they’re that’s how they’re measured. So right or wrong, yeah.

Jeff McKay (21:29.998)
Sure, sure. I was not though. Yes, yes.

Jeff McKay (21:38.883)
Yes, yes. Your point of clarification is taken. I I I was speaking in those terms. So if you’re a listener and you’re thinking in terms of outputs of number of brochures and blog posts, that is not the proper way to be thinking about outputs and outcomes. so when we have this conversation with CMOs, we will pay attention to their language.

Jason Mlicki (21:46.5)
Yeah.

Jason Mlicki (21:55.545)
Well.

Jason Mlicki (22:09.379)
Yeah. I I I just think it’s it outputs and outcomes have been have been actually very much linear for decades, right? Like the amount of outputs you had increased your outcomes. I’ll I’ll come back to this is super random, but I’ll never forget. I always made fun of it. HubSpot did this research initiative where they this was back in like, I don’t know, 10 years ago, and they said, Well, if you have more landing pages, you get more leads. And I always would joke about that, right? That was the one I always made fun of.

Jeff McKay (22:09.396)
And how are they describing it?

Jason Mlicki (22:37.711)
And I like, that’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. But there was absolutely a correlation between the volume of stuff you put into the world and the and the volume of stuff of of what you got back, leads and pipeline or whatever. I think that’s broken. and it’s and it’s that’s that’s the probably the biggest thing that’s changing right now is that that relationship is going away. And as a result, I think it just changes marketing works a lot. and I, you know.

Maybe I’m being overly semantic about it, but I just I just I just I see a lot of firms where like that’s just still the metric is like, well, we gotta get all this stuff done because our belief is that this stuff is going to lead to the outcomes we want. It may or may not be true. So let’s move on. I don’t wanna I don’t wanna I don’t wanna beat this one to death. I think there’s other hypotheses you’ve identified that are are equally or more important. So

Jeff McKay (23:37.561)
Yeah. the the second hypothesis, and I’m seeing this play out all already. and I think the people that we talk to will probably say something along the lines that strategic judgment is becoming much more valuable. the execution.

is easier, cheaper, agentic, the production is much faster and easier, but being able to discern what’s relevant and where to invest in in growth is is going to be the premium

quality of a marketer, I think, moving forward. So less tactical, definitely more strategic. And by more strategic, let me define this definition before you jump in and take us down another tangent not intended. Strategic to me means broad understanding of the business and its growth.

Drivers.

Jason Mlicki (25:08.259)
Yeah, I think that’s I I I totally agree. I totally agree. I I think this actually is is a a logical sequence of what we just talked about is execution is going to get cheaper and cheaper. which means that coming back to the conversation about productivity, that just because you can do way more than you ever did before doesn’t mean you should. And it’s going to be harder.

for some firms. I mean, some firms have to have to wake up to that, right? I mean, I’m not saying that there’s a lot of firms, but there are but there are definitely firms that are looking at this as like, my gosh, we can we can flood the zone now, right? We don’t and you and that’s not but it’s not gonna help you. if that makes any sense.

Jeff McKay (25:52.825)
Yeah, and I d I think, you know, that’s the po the point of having strategic marketing guidance is less ultimately could be more. And being able to make those decisions is going to be the critical attribute of a strategic marketing function. Because there’s so much you could do, but you shouldn’t necessarily be doing it.

Jason Mlicki (26:20.781)
Yeah. It reminds me of like in during the during the content era of the last 10 years, how many times did you hear the whole conversation of like, and this is still going on, right? How many, how many different content types can you get out of this one asset? We did this research. How many different ways can we get this research in the market? We did this podcast. How many different slices of video can we get out of this one podcast? Right. And that’s like a that was a huge part of content marketing was.

How do you take one kernel of an idea and then blow it out into 7,000 different channels? And that noise, AI can do that like no marketing unit ever, right? But as a result, that’s that’s the that’s the AI noise. And so that kind of stuff is I think gonna be far less valuable. And so the strategic judgment about what to do and what not to do, I I totally agree, is gonna be the most important.

Maybe the most important thing that a marketing leader or a marketing organization can bring to the table for the firm. You know, that’s the essence of strategy. You always say that, you know, right? What not to do is the essence of strategy. You know? So

Jeff McKay (27:31.704)
That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. and I think it’ll be much more valuable. discernment. Maybe yeah, yeah. Third hypothesis.

Jason Mlicki (27:43.629)
Yeah, agreed. What else you think we’re gonna learn or we’re gonna see?

Jeff McKay (27:53.335)
I think specialization will decline and we will go back to the generalist.

But I don’t know that for sure. I think there may be AI specialties. but I think a lot of the traditional marketing specialties, and you alluded to this all already when you started talking about SEO, maybe even, you know, web design.

some content production and in writing, those things are gonna disappear, because AI can do them fast and and cheap.

Jeff McKay (28:54.712)
But I don’t know but I don’t want to say that specialization will disappear. I think some of the specialized roles that exist currently will definitely disappear.

Jason Mlicki (28:54.991)
So you’re talking about

Jason Mlicki (29:05.231)
You’re talking about skill specialization, right? Like

Jeff McKay (29:09.014)
Yeah, so for example, for example, I think if you’re a small marketing organization and you only can employ a certain number of bodies.

It’s going to be more fruitful for you to employ a body that understands the firm’s business and the practice or an industry at a strategic level more than it will be somebody that is a specific technical writer or SEO person, or a social media person. I think.

At least I’m thinking I would rather have that next layer up of business understanding, both a general business acumen and an understanding of the practice or the solution or industry that I’m taking to mark.

Jason Mlicki (30:17.199)
It’s almost like you’re describing not that specialization’s going to decline, but that it’s almost shifting, you know, from skill specialization to industry solution specialization, something like that, where you’re you’re you know, your your marketers are I mean, this goes back to your other hypothesis around strategic judgment, your marketers are more business.

people than maybe they have been in the past. the expectation is that they need to be, they should be.

Jason Mlicki (30:57.705)
yeah, I kinda you know, w when you threw this one out I was kinda like, I don’t know. And and what I made when I when I where where I was I don’t know was like I just don’t see

specialization ever really going fully away, just because when you think about the

The breadth of of marketing, the I mean, w it’s hard to articulate what I mean, but if you think about how you might market a business thirty years ago versus how you might market it now, it’s like you’re talking about two totally radically different worlds. It’s like in world one, you’ve got a you know, you’ve got a I’m just thinking of what comes to mind. You’ve got a swimming pool in your back world backyard. In world two, you’re running an aqua park in Orlando.

You know, like that’s the difference, right? And so I just I can’t see specialization fully going away just because on some level so much of what plays out is you’ve got you you you need someone with some technical nuance to whatever that is. But I agree that I think it’s shift I think it’s going to shift. I think you’re going to see some specializations being far less valuable and other ones be far more valuable. And to your point, business prowess and industry prowess or

Jeff McKay (31:51.48)
No.

Jason Mlicki (32:21.089)
understanding of clients and client types is probably going to go up in in value as a specialization, I would think. So

Jeff McKay (32:29.442)
I think so. I I I I see that playing out.

already. and you can you can just think in terms of B2B, B2C, subdivide B2B down into its various sub-industries. I think a deeper understanding of of what makes those industries tick.

and how marketing is most effective in those is just gonna be really valuable. and in and I I think that’s

that aligns with the solution structures of of professional services. And and I think it it will get even more interesting as more firms move to productized solutions, value based pricing and things like that. I think that that opens up

Some areas of specialization as well.

Jason Mlicki (33:46.179)
Yeah. Okay. What else? Any other hypotheses you have about what we’re gonna see?

Jeff McKay (33:52.717)
This one and and this one is not self-serving, but I do think it is definitely real that CMOs become more strategic and operational at the same time.

Jeff McKay (34:09.714)
Like we said with the specialization hypothesis, I think it applies particularly to CMOs. the real value from a CMO is not just gonna be the ability to orchestr or to I think orchestration is gonna be an important one, not just to operationalize, but to orchestrate.

Jason Mlicki (34:34.551)
I I hate that word.

Jeff McKay (34:38.446)
and to bring a much more strategic perspective, like we’ve already discussed, a much deeper and broader understanding of the business. When you look at a at a lot of CMOs in the professional services space, they really are functional leaders. They are not business leaders. and I think the CMO of the future is going to be.

By necessity a business leader, not a functional leader.

Jason Mlicki (35:11.545)
What what do you mean by operational? Define that when you say what do you mean by they’re gonna be more operational?

Jeff McKay (35:19.542)
I th I think this kind of speaks to our earlier conversation around the IC triad. the integration of the marketing sales and delivery functions and understanding how that works. instead of just being a GSD marketing ops person that knows how to

take inputs and produce outputs as we talked talked about. I think when you look at most CMOs, they’re really good at cranking out stuff.

The cranking out stuff is not what is gonna be needed in these businesses. operationally they need to understand the whole business.

Jason Mlicki (36:22.413)
I agree. I mean I I I agree. I don’t I don’t I but I don’t I don’t know if that’s new. Right? I think that’s always been true. It’s just not it’s been rare. And I think the question isn’t isn’t whether or not that’s changing. It’s whether or not the likelihood of that goes up. Yeah, you know, meaning that firms demand it. Now the real question I think

Jeff McKay (36:34.242)
Yes, yes.

Jeff McKay (36:49.442)
Yes, they’re no longer going to tolerate it is probably the best way of articulating.

Jason Mlicki (36:55.691)
Yeah, I think the well, I think the real question yeah around that is going to be where do those people come from? What I see a lot of firms do is take a senior partner and turn them into a marketer and figure they can figure and assume they can figure marketing out. And that never really works. And most of those organizations have a very underdeveloped marketing organization.

Because the person leading it doesn’t really understand the full context of what marketing is and can be. And on the flip of it, to your point, you know, in some orgs, you have a very capable senior marketing leader that doesn’t really fully understand the business, but is really good at running this large team that knows how to produce the output that the firm has been asking it for for a very long time. And they’re struggling to prove ROI and can tie it to outcomes.

Right. They’re struggling with that because they don’t really know how to do that. And that’s because it really f and f you know, candidly, because it’s hard, right? All fairness, it’s actually not easy. especially at scale. If you’ve got a big firm, it’s really hard to kind of figure out how to attribute this stuff. so to me, it’s not a question of if that’s true. I think it’s 100% true. It’s just a question of how are we either going to find those people or maybe more importantly, how are we going to develop those people if we’re a if we’re a decent sized firm.

because what’s been done to up till now hasn’t worked real well, would be my argument. Either of the two paths to senior leader senior marketing leadership I’ve just described has not yielded what you’re saying firms need. And so what do they need to do differently to get there, I think is the real question here.

Jeff McKay (38:40.194)
Yeah, that was the point of my earlier comment around these are talent strategy questions as well. is how do you invest in the development of the business understanding of your marketing person? Most firms do not make that investment. I would I would say no firms make that investment. CMOs and

Jason Mlicki (38:48.483)
Yeah, agreed.

Jeff McKay (39:09.4)
High performing CMOs take it upon themselves to learn the business. They proactively reach out and dig and learn and grow in their understanding of the business. I’ve yet to see any firm that makes a significant in investment in marketing people to deeply understand the business.

Jason Mlicki (39:36.792)
No, no. I I you know, I I want to take that even one step further. I I think that we talked a lot about the pyramid structure of most firms, right? The up and out model that’s defined professional services in a lot of firms for for decades and how AI is changing that, right? Like we’ve talked a lot, there’s all these hypotheses about what that looks like. Is it a diamond? Is it a column? The the the the gist of it is that there’s there’s going to be fewer junior staffers in these firms operationally.

And there’s going to be fewer fewer junior staffers in the marketing function as well, based on what you said earlier, right? So the the implication is you’ve got to be way more purposeful about your training programs now. Because you’re before it was kind of like you’d throw a hundred people in a room and just see who rises to the top on their own with very little guidance. Now it’s like, well, your pool’s only 20. So you better put some money behind them to figure out who’s going to merge from the 20. Or you’re not going to have a firm with all due respect.

Or you’re not gonna have a marketing function in all the respect that does anything of any value, right? So okay.

Jeff McKay (40:42.338)
Yeah, I I I agree. And and to me, that’s one of the biggest challenges and and one of the things that I want to probe with our guests is how are you going to develop these people? because it’s it’s the biggest it’s the biggest challenge. Well, I think number one is finding somebody with a learner mindset, you know, ambition and drive.

and business acumen. That’s the raw material. And then how do you develop it, motivate it, grow it in what is a very flat organization? I I I th I think it’s going to be a fascinating a fascinating challenge.

Jason Mlicki (41:32.544)
Yeah, I I t to to me the the the the biggest thing that I I see that needs to change and and I I am hoping we will see change on this journey is a reactive mindset to that problem and to a proactive mindset to that problem. The reactive mindset was they’re just going to emerge and that’s not going to be true anymore because the pool’s shrinking. So that like you’re gonna have to be more proactive about it than you were before. So

Any other hypotheses you want to share? These are all good. Except for your complete you know mistake on the productivity. But other than that, it’s all good.

Jeff McKay (42:05.282)
I think the the last one.

Jeff McKay (42:10.848)
I I th I think the last one

Kind of speaks to how we want to set up the the series and the research is we don’t want this to just be AI technology alone is driving this. AI technology is is a big part of it, but there’s a lot of other dynamics that are going on right now.

That I want to explore as as well. but I think one of the big things, and we’ve alluded to this in our conversation about the IC triad as well, is how does the organization change and adapt? How does it restructure? How does it take these decades?

Old mindsets about what marketing is or isn’t. You know, whether you come from the productivity school or the growth school of of marketing, or you know, pick your sales school, how does that evolve organizationally? and how do we begin to blend

these different roles that before were highly delineated, right? That’s that’s marketing, that’s sales, that’s delivery. Where now they’re all starting to blend in so many ways. I think that’ll be fascinating conversation.

Jason Mlicki (44:01.507)
Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. I’m excited about it. I think it’s gonna be a fun series. I think it’s going to be interesting to hear where senior marketers, leaders, heads are on this topic. in all the different firms we have lined up to join us in conversation. And I think it’s going to be even more interesting to try to, you know, discern the patterns from it because that’s where will really where all the action always is. It’s you know, you have seven, eight, ten, twelve, fifteen conversations and

what are the patterns that you take away from that? I think it’s going to be really exciting. So

Jason Mlicki (44:44.131)
What what how do how do you wanna how do you wanna cliffhang this? Because we’re gonna cliffhang this. We’re not gonna unmask the villain today, I’m sorry. We don’t know who we don’t know who’s behind the Tara Monster mask.

Jeff McKay (45:01.016)
Well, I guess I would I would put it this way. If you’ve ever wondered what’s the marketing organization you should be building, this is going to be a great series for you. because we hope to answer those questions about where to invest, what does the talent strategy look like?

What are the roles? What is the org structure? If you only have set amount to invest, how would you invest it to get the highest ROI? I think it’s going to be a fascinating conversation. And we’re going to have some great guests. I think with some very strong opinions about the answers to those questions.

Jason Mlicki (45:54.56)
Good news is we don’t have strong opinions at all, so I I don’t think that’ll be a problem

Jeff McKay (45:59.651)
Yeah.

Jason Mlicki (46:02.391)
All right, man. Well, I’m excited about it. I think it’s going to be a really interesting initiative. And and like you, I I I am curious to hear how markers are marketers are thinking about this and how senior marketing leaders are thinking about this. Cause I do think we are at I I I’ve said this a lot over the last couple of years. This is a pivotal moment. the way we’ve marketed for the last two decades is

Under significant change. And what you do right now will define whether or not your marketing organization is viable and thriving in three or four years. or if it’s completely atrophied and you’re way behind. And so I don’t I don’t think there’s a more important conversation to be having if you’re a firm leader from at least as it relates to your marketing and growth strategies, or a marketing leader for that matter.

Obviously. So thank you for for for designing it. I guess I’ll say I’d I I’d say you’re the lead designer on this on this on this research. So

Jeff McKay (47:13.176)
Well, let’s get to it.

Jason Mlicki (47:17.015)
All right. See ya.

Jeff McKay (47:18.638)
I’ll talk to you later, buddy.