Jason Mlicki (00:01.752)
So, Jeff, if my memory serves me right, this is actually going to be our last, I guess, interview in this series around the future of the marketing organization. And I I think we’re really fortunate to to have the guests we have today because we’re welcoming Damien Enderley, who is a good the go-to-marketing go to market lead for CBiz. And

Damien Enderle (00:05.608)
Sure.

Jason Mlicki (00:28.856)
Damien’s gonna bring with him the enterprise perspective. But what I’m really excited about with Damien is he’s just got such a long track record of marketing leadership roles at so many well-respected firms. Markham, Grant Thornton, Deloitte, Cohen Resnick, he’s kind of been in every major firm. And so, Damien, first off, welcome to the show. And we’re

Damien Enderle (00:47.41)
Thank you. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you, Jason. Appreciate you having me. and from that setup, you boy, I sound old. Wise. There we go.

Jason Mlicki (00:56.494)
Ha ha ha.

Jeff McKay (00:56.721)
No wise. You sound wise. There’s a difference. Yeah, yeah.

Jason Mlicki (01:02.678)
Well, Je Jeff Jeff and I have a contest over who’s older. He always likes to pin me as the as the old guy in the room, so you know, kind of a battle.

Damien Enderle (01:09.578)
Ha ha ha.

Jeff McKay (01:11.057)
Well, the the the only thing I have over you is I have hair. You win in every other category.

Damien Enderle (01:18.994)
Yeah.

Jason Mlicki (01:19.438)
Yeah. Hair is fading fast. All right. Well what actually what I I I just kind of window dressed your your your career. So why don’t you give us a little bit of a b the backstory? Kind of tell us about your role at CBez and also tell us about C Bes in general and then tell us about how you ended up where you are right now. So

Damien Enderle (01:39.794)
Yeah, absolutely. First of all, thank you for having me. thrilled to be joining you on Rattle and Pedal. again, my name is Damian Enderley. my my long title, and I’ll tell you what it actually means, is vice president go to market planning and activation for SIBAS. SIBAS is the seventh largest accounting firm in the United States. we are the only publicly traded firm.

And as of July twenty-seventh announcement this year, we are being acquired fully by Grant Thornton US. And that vote is is getting ready to happen with sharehood shareholders this week and probably announce early next week, November 2nd, is the date that we’re looking for in terms of integration. so

My role is really working at the intersection of business strategy and market activation within CBiz. I’m very fortunate to lead a team within what we call our marketing center of excellence of about 35 marketers across digital and demand generation, editorial and thought leadership, creative and marketing project management. So a lot of fun.

you know, when they asked me to take this role, I I was kind of you know, like, are are you kidding? Wait, I I get to be at the intersection of creative and digital and brand and advertising. That’s the other thing that I own for the firm is the is the advertising and the media planning for the advertising that we do do on national television and out-of-home billboards and buses around the country. So

a very fortunate position in terms of my tenure career. But yes, Jason, to your point, I’ve spent my 25 plus year career working primarily in the big four. EY is the only one of the big four that I haven’t been with, but also across mid market firms. and and the primary challenge that I try to solve, you know, every day when I come to work is is really translating the growth ambitions of our partners, our managing directors and the firm.

Damien Enderle (04:02.309)
you know, in and translating that of a very complex professional services firm into clear market value propositions and coordinated integrated marketing activation. So it’s a lot of fun. our CBIS center of excellence, as I said, is is centralized around capabilities in working and supporting the hundred plus person marketing team.

across industries and services and regions and and business development. so it is it is a lot of fun. It really is day to day.

Jeff McKay (04:38.724)
Sounds like a cush job.

Jason Mlicki (04:38.86)
Yeah.

Damien Enderle (04:41.053)
I’ll tell you why it’s a cushion job. And I think about this also every day that I wake up. I have four of the most brilliant marketers that I’ve ever worked with leading that creative brand, the digital and demand generation, the editorial thought leadership and the and the project management. strangely, in a female-dominated

business like professional services marketing, three of those four are males, extremely experienced. And as I told my brother the other day in a phone call, I I’ve never worked with such great marketers that are also just really, really good and fun people. we we had a a C Biz Marketing Leadership meeting in Dallas early in the summer.

and we had a group activity one night and beforehand the three of us three of us broke off and went and got some barbecue and deep elum and and sat and had beers and and it was just it just a a a great conversation not about work but we we generally enjoy being around each other and that’s a rarity. It’s a rarity in any business and any team. So it is it’s a lot of fun, Jeff.

Jeff McKay (06:01.828)
Yeah, that’s that’s cool. Well

Jason Mlicki (06:01.845)
Yeah. I you know, real quick, Jeff, I I you know, w you bring a senior leader onto a podcast like this and they’re always gonna say, I’ve got great people, right? and indirectly I wanted just to say that actually da Dami and I met through a project that we did for our client, the National Center for the Middle Market, that CBiz funded, sponsored. And I I’m saying all this because I worked with those people and they are. They’re really good people. I like I was and so it’s like y

Damien Enderle (06:23.398)
Okay.

Jason Mlicki (06:31.851)
They’re really smart. I think that particular research report, and we’ve done like 70 or 80 of these things for the center over the last 15 years, was probably one of the more interesting and more thoughtful pieces because of the the the the way that that Damien, you and your team sort of thought about what we could do. Yeah. That’s

Damien Enderle (06:48.807)
Yeah, just just really talented people. Yeah. And you know, it makes it fun because my my job is to to your point, Jeff, it it’s it’s increasingly less about, you know, producing marketing and the activations and all of that. And it’s more about really building that connective tissue, you know, between what the firm strategy is, you know, client needs that we’re hearing in the marketplace and and and bringing together that knowledge in the market. So

It it does. It it’s it’s great and and the nice thing is that we report up through a CMO who is extremely experienced. She’s just great to work with and a very, very supportive person. You know, another rarity in this business that you find. So it’s a lot of fun and and hopefully all of that translate I I you know to to where we’re headed with Grant Thornton.

Jeff McKay (07:41.349)
Yeah, well, that’s one of the many things I love about the professional services industry. You get to work with dynamic, very intelligent, driven people. it makes it a lot of fun. It’s it’s a heck of a lot better than selling toothpaste.

Damien Enderle (07:54.801)
Mm-hmm. It really does.

Jason Mlicki (08:02.923)
Let’s let’s put some context around that if you don’t mind, Damien. Like just help us understand the the scale of this team, like you know, the the the the marketing center of excellence. you can be a as as much as you can share anyway, in terms of you know, how how big is this team? What’s the budget like? Like how what’s the what’s the context of the marketing function at Fermix Tis? Yeah.

Damien Enderle (08:10.716)
Mm-hmm.

Damien Enderle (08:21.649)
Yeah.

So so let’s talk about the size first. This the size is right now we’re at thirty-three, thirty-five people. and those are are fairly evenly cut, you know, between or divided I should say between the creative and the brand, the digital and demand generation, and editorial and thought leadership.

So we support then the broader marketing organization, which is probably about 80, 90 go-to-marketers that are regionally industry service line based in terms of what they do. the the advertising and brand budget that I hold and responsible for the the firm has been very proactive, CBIS has in terms of the advertising.

and really getting out there with the brand. And that’s that’s somewhere in the five and a half to six million that we spend on an annual basis, again, across television, out of home, the the the bus wraps that we do in 12 major markets. and then the larger marketing budget across the firm is is probably the harder number to put in exact figure to because you have some budgets that are regional, some that are, you know, in terms of industry and

You know, that’s that’s a a a larger budget, that’s a harder number to put, you know, a a thumb a thumb to.

Jason Mlicki (09:58.366)
no, that’s super helpful. And and how how big is the firm in revenue right now with the with the I guess pre merger and

Damien Enderle (10:05.851)
Yeah, pr pre merger we’re at at just under three billion and we have close to ten thousand people across the United States. post merger, we will be upwards of a I don’t know, what is it, twenty-five billion dollar a year firm? and probably around thirty thousand. no, it won’t be twenty-five. I take that back. It’ll be more like seven or

8 billion and around 25,000 you know total employees. So again, the the fifth largest firm in the country is Grant Thornton. And Grant Thornton has invested heavily in member firms around the country that are now part of the US firm. Ireland was recently acquired, Australia. I think there’s a couple other countries in there that they have.

So a a very sizable firm, a decent presence in terms of outsourcing and and support across the practice areas and marketing in India. you know, and a and a considerable presence. and the Grant Thornton brand is just really, really solid, has been since I was there and in the early two thousands. So it’s an exciting opportunity, exciting change.

Jason Mlicki (11:31.339)
Yeah, no, absolutely. It’s

Damien Enderle (11:32.197)
And and private equity plays into that, right? New Mountain Capital is the investor that came to the table and acquired and supported parts of of CBIS over the last couple of years.

Jason Mlicki (11:45.933)
Got it. Okay. Well let’s Go ahead, Jeff. No. No. Lead the way.

Jeff McKay (11:48.791)
go ahead. Go ahead. I I was just gonna ask the new entity is is Grant th I’m assuming Grant Thornton is taking you private, not doing a reverse IPO and okay.

Damien Enderle (11:56.263)
Mm-hmm.

Damien Enderle (12:02.279)
Correct. Correct. That’s absolutely correct. Yeah, we will again be private and managing directors will move to the partnership. and CBI’s the the CBIS brand will be around probably until you know mid-January, early February. and then we will sunset the brand and become part of of Grant Thornton.

Jeff McKay (12:26.202)
Wow, that’s pretty fast.

Jason Mlicki (12:26.605)
Yeah.

Damien Enderle (12:28.241)
Yeah, yeah, it will. It will be a you know a a fast transition. But you know, in in in in my mind at least, that’s the way it it should happen. You know, that’s the way these deals happen best and and and keeping around a a brand that is no longer, you know, over time it just doesn’t make sense.

Jeff McKay (12:47.578)
Yeah, yeah. Well, you’re gonna be busy.

Jason Mlicki (12:51.703)
Well

Damien Enderle (12:52.109)
Very busy. That’s fun. I love I love I love mergers. As I said, this is my my fourth major one. I was part of Price Waterhouse and Cooper’s and Library and then had a direct hand in the in the the complete transition of of Resnik Group to along with J J H Cohen to to that new firm, you know, Cohn Resnick.

Jeff McKay (12:54.222)
Busy in that cushion,

Damien Enderle (13:21.029)
and then two years ago was part of the Markham transition when I was CMO at Markham to to Civiz. So it’s a lot of fun. It does. It creates a lot of opportunity and a lot of work and there’s many, many things from a brand perspective to think through. So very exciting stuff.

Jason Mlicki (13:39.202)
Well, let’s it’s actually a a great segue for us because I think what let’s talk about because it does also create an opportunity to rethink the structure of the marketing organization to say, okay, what does this new new co marketing or look like? And you have this kind of wild card that’s feeding into it, that that is AI. And of course there’s other things that Jeff and I have talked about. I guess when you’re thinking about this, apologize.

Damien Enderle (13:48.231)
Sure.

Mm-hmm.

Jason Mlicki (14:05.419)
I i if you were you know, y I guess you do have the opportunity to build build a market organization from scratch at at this point in some ways.

Damien Enderle (14:12.581)
Well we’ll we’ll see. You know, yet yet to be defined what and if and where roles will be. But, you know, I certainly hope to have a hand, you know, in thinking through the strategy and, you know, what comes next. and the you know, the nice thing is is that nobody’s nobody’s thinking about starting with org charts, Jason. You know. that that’s the really nice thing. I think that that folks are are rightly and and very smartly thinking about

Jason Mlicki (14:33.015)
Hmm. Yeah.

Damien Enderle (14:42.811)
you know, what is the growth system, right? How do you structure, you know, where to compete and how to compete and, you know, what to save, you know, what problems come up, how buyers buy today, you know. So so those are the important things. and I’m sorry I cut you off, but I think you were kind of getting into, you know, the organ the organization and the marketing structure of the future.

Jason Mlicki (15:02.443)
No.

Damien Enderle (15:09.329)
You know, and and how do you build that? And I don’t think it’s just around mergers. I think I think many firms are thinking about this now, especially with AI and you know, all of these things. And and you know, the the the connected capabilities I think are the most important thing. So what do I mean by that? I mean like client experience and client intelligence. we on the C Biz side have a a brilliant team.

Under a really good client experience leader. Her name is Jen Carrow, and she’s out of the Midwest. And she does such a great job of really taking the pulse and staying on top of what clients are thinking, how we’re interacting with clients, what their feedback is, all of that client intelligence, what’s happening in the marketplace. And the that really informs the go-to-market strategy. You can start to think about.

client stories that come out of that and brand and content. and and that trickles down then into what is the demand generation and the field activation? And gee, are the sponsorships and the events that we’ve always done, do do they really make sense now? You know, should we be investing in these things? It’s it’s the old adage, you hear it all the time. And Jeff, I’m sure you experience this, you know, well, why are we sponsoring this this year? Well, we’ve always sponsored that.

You know, we we’ve always been a big player in a gold sponsor there or a silver sponsor, you know. Why why wouldn’t we do it? Well, maybe the market shifted a bit. What are clients telling are the clients there, you know? So that really gets into the whole operating system. And and I would say that AI is not the leader in the operating system around marketing. I would say that the Martech stack is where you begin, right? What does the CRM look like? What are the demand generation tools look like?

What are the client communication tools look like? How are you doing newsletters? I hate that word. I can’t believe that, you know, 25 years later that newsletters are the first things that so many partners in these firms talk about. But but they do, you know, and we’ve started to rethink that. really smart demand generation team at CBiz. And they’ve started to say, how do we group content in terms of emails?

Damien Enderle (17:29.649)
you know, across industries or service lines and how do we rethink that? So, you know, how does that then play into data and and and CRM and and workflow? So it’s really that operating system. And yes, AI is now increasingly a part of that. Like what are we using AI for in terms of analysis and CRM systems and and our demand generation systems? But it’s not the leading edge. I think that Martech stack

you know, of of various softwares and tools that we use as the leading edge. So that’s that’s really where you start in terms of building that marketing organization of the future. The the org chart should be really an output of that thinking and that planning and that growth strategy. It shouldn’t be the the starting point. And that’s kind of where we are right now. Nobody’s nobody’s talking as we bring these firms together. Nobody’s really talking org charts right now. We’re talking about capabilities and strategy and

client needs and and where do we intersect. So sorry, you got me on a you got me on a on a high point right there. And I I enjoy talking about that. I’m not nearly as knowledgeable in that Martech stack as you would think, but have really, really smart people around it.

Jeff McKay (18:45.358)
Yeah, I I really like that thinking in the way you described it. because it’s very client-centric. it’s it’s very attuned to the market and the demands of the market as well. I I don’t know that a lot of firms think that way.

Damien Enderle (18:56.871)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff McKay (19:15.18)
i it it seems intuitive that every firm would think that way, but because they’re made up of fiefdoms, more often than not, and the larger you get, the more fiefdoms. Yeah. but you don’t think in in those terms, but it’s a it’s a great way to build an organization.

Damien Enderle (19:21.325)
Thank you.

Damien Enderle (19:27.121)
They s they they so are. They so are. And we should dive into that. But yeah.

Damien Enderle (19:43.549)
Uh-huh.

Jeff McKay (19:44.865)
If if you had to speculate, and I know this is speculation, what would an organization using that lens and that mindset start to create? What would be its foundation once you get by the tech? What what comes next? What are what are some of the other layers that you see?

Damien Enderle (20:10.961)
Yeah. I I would go back to client needs really and what’s happening in the marketplace. You know, so often we’re taking direction in tax from what’s happening on the hill, whether it’s the big beautiful bill or, you know, the the the Trump tax law changes that we went through, you know, in the in the last couple of years. You know, so much of that is driving what we’re thinking about in terms of content and client intersections and you know, tariffs is a great one, you know, how to

How do people prepare for tariffs and deal with tariffs? And then all of a sudden on the back end, it’s, well, how do you get your money back? You know, and how do you file? You know, and and that once they were reversed. So so that really speaks to those client needs and and really focusing and being client centric client centric about the things that you’re putting out there, the sponsorships you’re doing, the programs that you’re putting in the marketplace. Tax is probably an easy one, but

Jason Mlicki (20:49.115)
Yeah.

Damien Enderle (21:09.105)
You know, there’s there’s a lot that’s happening. So that that client-centric approach, as opposed to so much of what we’ve seen, and I think law firms are challenged by this even today, from what I see, is what’s happening across the street. What are they doing over there? boy, we need to do that too, that reactive marketing. but then getting back to what you were talking about there, Jeff, of of getting away from

the the the fiefdoms, right? And a lot of that has to happen at the top of the firm. before we started recording, we started talking about kind of that one firm approach that has to trickle down from the top. And and marketing is is more easily aligned to that and can put better programs in the marketplace and more integrative and and cross-serving across industries and service lines and regions when

That type of one-firm approach happens as opposed to the loudest voices, the biggest books of business dictating what their marketers are going to do. And that’s when we, as a center of excellence and a hub for creation, become so reactive to what the internal needs of the firm are, as opposed to proactive, longer-term planning of.

what we need to do to attack the marketplace.

Jeff McKay (22:40.886)
I can’t believe that you would condemn the injury lawyers billboard as as a a monkey see monkey do. That nothing could be further.

Damien Enderle (22:49.777)
Ha ha ha.

Damien Enderle (22:54.663)
That that’s a different ty that’s a different type of law. That is a different type of law. What in the Philadelphia area, you can’t go to a sports game or go downtown to a concert or anything without seeing just those those injury billboards everywhere. And I think it’s really effective marketing. I really do. you know, those those plaintiffs attorneys, you know, that are out there. I mean, look at the look at the Morgan and Morgan. You know, you can go anywhere in this country and you’re seeing

Jeff McKay (23:13.122)
my gosh.

Damien Enderle (23:24.699)
that integrated approach to what they’re doing. That that’s different than kind of the the corporate, you know, law. But yes.

Jeff McKay (23:30.032)
Yeah.

Yeah, that’s not much of a B2B sale at all, right? Be top of mind when when somebody has a crash and you get the business. for sure.

Damien Enderle (23:35.949)
No, no. Right. Right.

Jason Mlicki (23:48.234)
One of the things I’m interested in is that and I I was listening as you as you both kind of interact a little bit about this. as a firm grows and as it scales and it gets to an enterprise and you’re going through another period of rapid growth, what tends to happen is the marketers and the marketing unit get further and further and further away from the client. Like that’s just logically what happens is because this firm becomes so big and so diverse.

Damien Enderle (24:11.549)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Mlicki (24:19.019)
The idea of the marketing unit having any kind of direct client interactions on a regular basis is just not going to be true. And you talk a lot about being client-centric and not doing what you just said, you know, not looking at what peers are doing, but focusing on how do we get to client-centric and how we client issues. And how do we how do we attack that proactively and not in a reactive fashion by letting the loudest partner walk in the room and dictate what we’re going to do? I guess I’d like to get underneath.

Damien Enderle (24:44.199)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Mlicki (24:48.887)
How do you do that? Like, how do you frame that proactive stance and get that client feedback? Because in my experience in all these firms, what tends to happen is every partner walks in the room and says, I know my clients and I’m going to tell you this. And then as marketers, we’re like, Well, I don’t think that’s right. So I’d love to hear your thoughts.

Damien Enderle (25:07.463)
Yeah. So so that’s a tough one because I I can talk about it, but in practice we’re not fully there, right? we’re a lot closer than other firms because as I said, we have a client experience team that is industry leading in terms of taking that pulse and helping us understand what clients are saying. from the basics of what their needs are and how we service them all the way down to whether or not

their bill makes sense when they get it. Right. we’re asking we’re asking a whole litany of questions in between there. so you know, I’m not sure that I have all the answers on how you get more client-centric. but I I can tell you what marketing, you know, should be owning and those things that they should stop doing to get closer to that.

you know, leaning into the market and client intelligence data is something that’s really, really important. and also understanding what that client journey is. We do client journeys or at least lead journeys across our demand generation systems to know how they’re interacting with us and telling us you know, what is most important in terms of their behavior on our website or what conferences they’re coming to and, you know, starting to track that.

but our CRM systems need to get a lot better and we need to have better teams and larger teams to be able to do that. but you know, the the the thought leadership development and the go-to-market orchestration in terms of what that solution mix is for that particular client set becomes really important. taking a look at our demand creation and our digital experience to make sure that we are not spamming the hell out of them.

which so many firms do. And we’ve started to get away from that. As I said, you know, rather than receiving 10 newsletters, you know, across a number of areas, how do we more tailor the communications and build that client experience? one of the things that Deloitte was really good at doing was building out a client portal, you know, in terms of information that people wanted to receive. so we need to get better at that.

Damien Enderle (27:34.698)
but you know, the marketing technology plays into it in the in the measurement and you know, really enabling our practitioners to be better and smarter about their marketing as well. but in terms of the stop doing, we we we should stop, and and this is really important in terms of my marketing center of excellence. We should stop being the you know, the firm’s production cue for ongoing cycles of collateral creation.

you know, we need this and we need that and why don’t we produce this and, you know, throwing stuff at the wall to see if it sticks. so, you know, we should stop treating marketing across the firm as as the department that that growth gets delegated to also. You know, that’s a that’s an interactive process. So, you know, treating every request that comes into marketing and is equal priorities just gotta stop.

You know, we we we can’t continue to do that. And you know, we spend a lot of time as marketing leaders really thinking through that and helping practitioners prioritize, reprioritize, and have hard conversations around pet projects and sponsorships and low value marketing spend. You know, how do we how do we get better as marketing leaders of enabling our marketers to have those hard conversations and backing them the whole way, you know? and then

you know, producing marketing without really a a defined audience and a defined audience journey. and by that I mean personas. We’ve gotten much better at figuring out personas and and that’s not just titles and, you know, where somebody sits in an organization. That’s what their behavior is. how are they interacting with us? you know, how new is that person to the CFO role as opposed to somebody that’s very tenured and and building that out.

You know, i i equating marketing activity activity across the board, you know, as impact at every turn is a big mistake. So, you know, we we’ve we’ve got to get away from that. So those are some of the things that we try and do about getting smarter in marketing and enabling our marketers. And, you know, I can give you a number of examples where, you know, day to day we’re just we’re consistently fighting that.

Jeff McKay (29:57.969)
My my experience as a marketer is different than what Jason described as the firm gets larger, marketing gets

Damien Enderle (30:00.318)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff McKay (30:10.938)
further removed from the the clients. and you you seem to indicate what I think is the solution. and that’s that you have this huge amount of industry and geography and service line market marketers, matrix I assume.

Damien Enderle (30:34.417)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff McKay (30:40.046)
I would expect that they are going

Damien Enderle (30:40.837)
And and I’m wearing double hats, you know. a regional marketer’s also the industry marketer, you know, back and forth.

Jeff McKay (30:43.919)
Yeah.

Jeff McKay (30:48.74)
Yeah, but I would think if they aren’t in the future marketing organization, those specialized generalists, if I can say that, are going to have to be much more attuned to the market.

Jason Mlicki (30:50.166)
Yeah.

Damien Enderle (31:10.321)
Yeah. Yeah, they absolutely are. you know, they they they they need to be more attuned to what’s happening, you know, if it’s a if it’s a regional marketer, you know, of you know, what business is coming in, what business is going out, what are the new opportunities in the marketplace. and and as the firms integrate and get bigger, you know, how do I tap those resources and those programs?

Jeff McKay (31:10.66)
Would you agree?

Damien Enderle (31:40.018)
That are already in place. So I’m not recreating the wheel. You know, I often say this to to to marketers in our firm, and that is if your head is not on a swivel day to day, you know, you you better watch out because somebody may be creating something on the West Coast that is the exact thing that you’re trying to create for an industry or a service area on the east coast. And, you know, are you talking to each other?

And you know, are we are we duplicating and replicating what’s already been done as opposed to integrating and how do I leverage? Yeah, it’s the old thing that you know no no no marketing is is you know is is new thing. It’s all been done before, you know, but but how do you leverage and improve and integrate? So yeah, I think that they need to get a lot smarter about it and

Jeff McKay (32:29.156)
Yeah. Yeah.

Damien Enderle (32:37.809)
You know, those are the those are the marketers that are really going to rise to the top of the ones that have their head on a swivel and know what’s going on across the firm and across the marketplace and are thinking how to propel that.

Jeff McKay (32:50.894)
Yeah, are you seeing some cool thinking about how to do that more effectively? Whether it’s leveraging the technology platforms, which you’re a big fan of, but you know, using AI or barbecue and beers or whatever the case may be, in order to rethink what that looks like, both from

Damien Enderle (33:14.011)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff McKay (33:21.104)
a differentiator from an an industry or service line perspective, but also to that one firm approach to client service. Is is C Biz or Grant Thornton doing some cool things around that front?

Damien Enderle (33:38.474)
I yes in in some regards, but you know, the the i it it’s really the judgment factor, you know, when you talk about some of these marketing programs that are out there, you know, like y yes, there’s some very cool things that are happening. but I would be hard pressed to say that right now we’re looking across those and integrating. We’re just beginning to

to get to know each other and and understand what’s happening in the marketplace. But yeah, there’s there’s there’s cool marketing programs that are out there that you know we’ve developed that lean heavily into the technology and the AI. but yeah it’s you know it’s kind of an evolving marketplace in a lot of ways for those things.

Jeff McKay (34:34.8)
So what I hear you saying that C Biz is being much more cautious and deliberate in in focusing that technology into its marketing efforts.

Damien Enderle (34:50.565)
I think all firms in professional services because of the risk review process and you know the the the value on really the the human judgment, you know, and and understanding clients and and understanding really what’s you know original that’s out there. you know, I think there’s a lot of a a lot of

you know, kind of hesitancy and and people being very careful about what we put out in the marketplace that is leaning towards technology first or, you know, a a singular AI approach to stuff. Like, you know, a AI makes execution, you know, a lot of cheaper. but judgment in terms of what’s being out there is is is more important than ever. so, you know

Marketing abundancy, you know, is something that I think technology and and AI and tools but you know offer, but is it distinctive, is it unique, is it client focused, is constantly, you know, something that you’re having to look at. yeah.

Jason Mlicki (36:11.339)
I’m curious what the what the wind is of the managing directors and the partner groups on these topics. And what I mean by that is, is it like they’re pressuring you to use more AI to try to do things more efficiently? Or is it the opposite? They’re like, I don’t want you using anything because of what you said, concerns about risk and that kind of stuff. What’s the what’s the vibe?

Damien Enderle (36:19.229)
Yeah.

Damien Enderle (36:25.628)
No.

Damien Enderle (36:31.869)
Yeah, the the vibe is is that we are constantly challenged by what they see as something that they can take on on their own, right? and what they’re trying to put out there in the marketplace, you know, is is sometimes scary. And we be we wind up becoming more of the

Jason Mlicki (36:57.377)
Ha ha ha.

Damien Enderle (37:01.315)
the the police around a lot of that, Jason. I I can point to any number of instances where you know, and this happens all the time, right? There’s there’s frustration with how fast editorial and content or demand generation and digital can scale something and and and they want to say, well, you know, well that’s all right. Well well, you know, we we’ve got this. and they’re out there creating content that

when you get into it and you read it, is like, no, no, no, no, no. You know, it’s just it’s just something that you’re constantly having to control. so I I I’ll give you, you know, a a a really good example, which is also a little scary at times, but you know, we had a practice area and a firm in which I worked, and I’m not going to name names, right? because I don’t want to get in trouble.

But they weren’t happy with how fast digital and demand generation, as I said, the content team, you know, was bringing something to bear. So they brought in an outside web agency to develop their own website, okay? Off of our platform, but or off of the platform at the time, but had its own unique URL. Okay. You could get to it from the website, but you know, they’re going to bring in another agency because we’re not.

scaling as fast as they needed to. And, you know, understand, okay? One of the first things that they did with this web development agency was ask them to populate, to write and populate over 300 pages of new content.

Crazy. Like, why? Why are we doing this? You know, it’s a perfect example where more content actually drives down SEO and rankings because you’re putting all of this stuff out there and Google and other engines are driving and saying timeout. You know, the the algorithms are so smart these days. They really are. And what it’s doing is it’s burying your search, right? And not only that.

Jason Mlicki (38:50.315)
Yeah.

Damien Enderle (39:15.665)
Are you really delivering on all 300 pages of that different type of content that’s out there? It’s just like, you know, you you want to pull your hair out, you want to give some leniency, but that’s where you’re having to pull back. and it happens in terms of content all the time as well. You know, more content that’s out there from an editorial standpoint, and the practice says, Well, we just developed this. Can you run it through a brand check? If you’re lucky, they’re saying run it through a brand check, right?

And my writers are saying time out. We’ve got to have a conversation here. Like this is clearly in an AI voice and an AI presence. And some of it’s good, but 70% of it sounds like it is right off of, you know, one of the various AI engines. And so that becomes then the policing that you have to do. And, you know, that’s where you that’s where you don’t make friends quickly. But it’s what we have to do.

Jeff McKay (40:13.136)
That’s why you get paid the big bucks for that Chris job.

Damien Enderle (40:14.971)
Yeah. I know, I know. So, you know, it’s just it’s a it it’s not a it’s not a question so much of you know what marketers are getting wrong with AI, you know, and and what they’re doing, but you know, how marketing leaders and and firm leaders are overestimating how much AI can help either change the org chart or, you know.

really change kind of operating model, you know, ways of thinking. So you know, starting with technology, ahead of strategy, always, you know, a scary thing. and that’s what we’re, you know, that’s that it’s I’m sure it’s not just us, it’s probably all firms and many marketing organizations that are B to B to C as well. You know, somebody always thinks that they can kind of go out there, so, you know, and and and do it.

quicker and smarter and it’s not always better. and like I said, sometimes it can drive down, you know, the f the efficacy, you know, of what you’re trying to do. So, you know, that’s that’s one of the challenges that are out there right now.

Jason Mlicki (41:34.67)
I was I was yeah, no, well I think I think I’ve experienced everything you describe very often. I don’t know how often Jeff does, but I experience it literally all the time. So so it’s it’s good to know that I’m not alone. I well let’s I I have a couple last questions for you. And the the first one I I guess I’m curious on, it’s i is, you know, when we look if we fast forward five years from now, it’s you know, it’s 2030s.

Damien Enderle (41:42.907)
Yeah.

Damien Enderle (41:47.953)
Mm-hmm.

Damien Enderle (41:52.242)
Sure.

Jason Mlicki (42:02.935)
When we look back on this moment and we see and we look back at how marketing was playing out and what was going on, what do you think we’re going to look back on and say, boy, we got that all wrong, or boy, we really misunderstood the shifts under our feet? What what’s your what’s your sense?

Damien Enderle (42:15.047)
Sure.

Well, one of the things right now that I’m having a hard time putting a finger on is are are there any jobs that have been lost to AI? Like, you know, it it’s it’s not really about the jobs right now. you know, we I think we’re focusing too much on on jobs rather than, you know, how do we change the bundle of tasks and decisions and accountability, you know, towards towards better execution. So, you know.

I think you know coordination right now is the biggest thing that AI brings. Not so much, you know, as I said, content generation, you know, or, you know, I I’ve seen it though on the demand gen side. Like we’re doing things. We’re analyzing lists a lot faster. You know, we’re doing so many things in in a in a quicker format to get a jump start on stuff. And and that’s not to say that we’re not doing

you know, some things around content as well. But you know, I I think that the the best organizations right now are using AI to really take a look at like, you know, campaigns and and, you know, the the market signals and and what’s happening out there and trying to realize, you know, the the that that AI’s changing, you know, the economics of knowledge and work and

you know, things that are making us look at the marketing operating model and how we provide space for some of these folks to do the things that they really do well, in larger quantities in a lot of ways, right? Because things are f happening faster with these tools. So, you know, starting with the growth system, you know, as I said, not the org chart, you know,

Damien Enderle (44:14.809)
AI really makes, you know

the the judgment of what we’re doing so much easier. and you know how do we how do we evolve from you know this this constant churn of of just materials and being a service provider to somebody that’s really looking at growth across the organization and and how do we do that better. And that affects the job of the CMO in a big way. Like the the CMO is is more of an enterprise operator and

you know, as as opposed to somebody that is, you know, overseeing marketing campaigns. You know, that that’s not really what the CMO is doing now. I think that the CMO is is somebody that, you know, is is multi channel. they’re really in a services organization. They’re really looking at at everything we talked about in terms of client and brand. and they’re moving from

you know, the the day-to-day execution to being more of a of a business design leader, right? They’re looking at the growth architecture and the go to market strategy. And along with that comes the marketing organization design. Like, you know, how do they make that happen better? and then, you know, how how do they focus on growth around people, you know, into some of these roles? I think that’s that’s where they they really need to be, you know, so that that’s gonna change a lot.

Corn Ferry just did a study. It just came out in the last couple of weeks, I think, around kind of the the CMO and it and and I will say it wasn’t focused on services organizations necessarily. but it was it was really focused on how the CMO can be responsible for more creative consistency and providing that strong operating model and encouraging more experimentation and governance, you know, and that’s really at the heart of where the

Damien Enderle (46:15.153)
The CMO needs to sit. So I think that’s gonna be a big change as well.

Jeff McKay (46:21.796)
Yeah, I agree on that front. I’ve been talking about that for some time. I call that integration of sales and marketing in delivery, the IC triad. And to me, that’s where the play is, not in the marketing organization itself, but to your point, Damien, the organizate the marketing organization that finally gets built.

Damien Enderle (46:40.583)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff McKay (46:50.4)
is designed to deliver on that integration of those those three more effectively. so yeah, yeah. And I think that’s why I’m so attuned. Yeah. That’s I I think that’s why your thinking resonates with me when you’re talking about the gross system instead of the marking the org chart. I think that makes a a lot of sense.

Damien Enderle (46:57.799)
Sure. Yeah. Higher level growth strategy, you know. And that oper that operator will. Yeah.

Damien Enderle (47:16.753)
Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, just look at where CMOs were reporting. For years they would report to the COO, you know, or a marketing partner, you know, in a in law firms still have this, you know, they still have a marketing partner that the CMO, you know, and and that’s just not the case anymore. In professional services, the CMO is sitting at the right hand of the CEO, you know, or the managing partner of a firm. So the the great thing is that we have that.

Jeff McKay (47:38.256)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Mlicki (47:43.021)
Sure.

Damien Enderle (47:45.425)
Donna Mirandola is our current CMO. and she came over a couple of years ago from Aeon and and and she is the you know, a a high, high level player who, you know, is at that level and and really sees across the enterprise day to day. So

Jason Mlicki (48:06.399)
All right. Well, well, first off, I want to thank you for for joining us. I I really appreciate your perspective. yeah, I mean, it’s very interesting to me how you’re navigating this and and and also very interesting to hear some of your insight in terms of what’s coming down the road, you know, for for CBiz and Grant Thornton. So last question Jeff always asks is if someone wants to connect with you, how how where how can they best find you? What’s what’s the best

Damien Enderle (48:10.715)
Yeah. Great conversation. I appreciate the opportunity.

Damien Enderle (48:25.969)
No.

Damien Enderle (48:35.729)
Yeah. The easiest way is LinkedIn. Yeah. I’m I’m pretty active on LinkedIn and I would you know, I always welcome the connections, especially in a time of change. So always looking forward for yeah. Always looking for connections and and and new acquaintances and friends across professional services and the marketing organization. But yeah, I’m just on on LinkedIn and and I do have a website which I try and keep up with, but not so much. And

Jason Mlicki (48:36.311)
What okay.

Jason Mlicki (48:48.545)
So kind of always?

Damien Enderle (49:04.507)
recent months. Which is Damien Damien Enderly dot com and my LinkedIn handle is is right there, Damien Enderly on LinkedIn.

Jason Mlicki (49:07.117)
For obvious reasons.

Jason Mlicki (49:16.269)
Great. Damien, thanks so much. I appreciate you coming on the show. great to see you. And thanks for your perspective and thanks for your time.

Damien Enderle (49:17.49)
Yeah.

Damien Enderle (49:24.903)
Jason, Jeff, thank you.